Talk:Vastese

Requested move 20 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:31, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Lu indialett di lu Uašt → Vastese – All sources I have found have labeled it as Lu Uâʃtaréule (It is title blacklisted however) Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:06, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The originally proposed move location was Lu Uâʃtaréule. See discussion below for more details. Steel1943 (talk) 03:43, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

The proposal has changed to changed to move it to Vastese, it should also be noted that it is currently a redirect, it was previously a redirect used on one page to a soccer team, but i have changed it to link here, and fixed the link on the soccer player's article. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

• @Iazyges: Or move to Dialect of Vasto (Abruzzo, Italy) or similar? The page's title needs to be comprehensible to English-speakers. If not, we need to decide on a typable version to redirect from. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@Anthony Appleyard: Hm, Ive seen it be called Vastesi, so perhaps that? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

• This article’s only source refers to it most often as “Vastese”. Gorobay (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Gorobay: Hm, obviously the same word, but which is better, but now that you mention it, I would go with Vastese because I think it sounds more like a language than Vastesi. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

• Move to Vastese. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
• Definitely move to Vastese, which is the name used by vastesiworld.org. Mr KEBAB (talk) 00:21, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Anthony Appleyard: Is their a way to change the name of the RM without confusing the bot? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

• @Iazyges: Yes. See this edit which I am pinging you with. Steel1943 (talk) 03:43, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Vastese. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 16:45, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Anthony Appleyard: When this is closed can I round robin it myself, or is that against the rules (Because closing it would be)? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:26, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Iazyges: If this move request is accepted, there is no need for a "round robin" page-name-swop (moving A to C, then B to A, then C to B), merely a plain move from Lu indialett di lu Uašt to Vastese; but first delete any obstructing redirect etc edits at Vastese and Talk:Vastese and their dependent pages, or ask me to make the move; that will delete the redirects at Vastese and automatically create redirects at Lu indialett di lu Uašt. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:26, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
• I have closed the discussion and made the move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:31, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Language or dialect?

The first sentence reads Lu indialett di lu Uašt (Lu Uâʃtaréule) or Vastese (the dialect of Vasto) is a Romance language spoken in the town of Vasto. So which one is it? Just because a dialect is noticeably different from the standard language (compare Swiss German with Standard German) it doesn't mean that it has to be classified as a language.

- Vastesiworld.org describes it as a language, but it cites no sources to back it up. The first sourced part is Regarding the case of the Italian peninsula, the linguists Laura e Giulio Lepschy write, in their book The Italian language today: “When people talk of Italian dialects they are not usually referring to different varieties of Italian. Italian dialects differ from literary Italian and among themselves so much that one dialect may be unintelligible to the speaker of another dialect. They may differ among themselves as much as French differs from Spanish, or Portuguese from Romanian, or for that matter English from Italian.” (1), which, obviously, is about something else.

The previous part, about Vastese being a language is, as I said, completely unsourced, and contains things like Lu Uâʃtaréule does not appear in the official lists of the languages of the world. However, it is not a mere dialect of Italian; it is a language in its own right. It does not appear in these lists because the documentation necessary to have it included has not yet been completed. - is that even allowed on Wikipedia? These three sentences alone make me question the reliability of that source.

- Anelli's "Origine del alcuni modi di dire popolari nel dialetto vastese" (see [1]) uses the term dialetto ("dialect").

- I have no access to Iuliano (2010), so I'll let someone else check that.

According to the little research I've done, Vasto is a town in the Province of Chieti, in southern Abruzzo. According to Abruzzo#Dialects (unsourced, I know), Vastese would be merely a subdialect of the Abruzzo Adriatic dialect, which is a southern Italian dialect a variety of Neapolitan, which is indeed a language. Mr KEBAB (talk) 00:52, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

• The local languages of Italy are called dialetti in Italian, so the use of that word is not evidence of anything one way or another. Gorobay (talk) 01:03, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
• Ok, but there's still a problem with using an unreliable source to prove that Vastese is a language, rather than a dialect. I think we just need better sources. Mr KEBAB (talk) 01:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
• Well the source does mention Gorobay's point, so I'm inclined to go with it being its own language, and all sources have talked about its mutual unintelligibility, which according to the lead of Dialect, make it its own language. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:11, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
• Well, as I said, that doesn't necessarily make it a language - see the point I made about Swiss German.

A thing I missed is that Abruzzo#Dialects actually describes Vastese as a variety of Neapolitan, which is indeed considered a language. We seriously need other sources here... Mr KEBAB (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: the Vastesi language source describes Vastese as in the same group as Abruzzo, Quote:

Lu uâʃtaréule among the “dialects” of Italy

On the Italian peninsula, lu uâʃtaréule belongs to the group of intermediate central-south “dialects”, that is, those including the “dialects” of Abruzzo, northern Puglia, Molise, Campania, and Basilicata. Although these “dialects” are rather different among themselves, there are some common traits that they share, including the neutralization of final vowels followed by metaphony. End quote.Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:05, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

• There is a saying that "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy.". (Info link: metaphony) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:12, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Anthony Appleyard: it has its own wikipedia page as well. But the quips of arbitrary standards aside, I think that the fact that it doesn't link up that well with anything else (Even within their own grouping the main characteristic they share is the neutralization of final vowels followed by metaphony, if we accept the standards of mutual unintelligibility, it cannot be any other languages dialect, and therefore is either a language or someone a dialect of itself. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:27, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB, Gorobay, and Anthony Appleyard: I have sent an email to SIL international, LINGUIST list, and OLAC. I have also contacted the Vasto club of australia and requested information on the language, an admin has responded saying he would look into the matter. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:51, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

We'll see what happens. Thanks. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB and Gorobay: I have contacted SIL International, and they have responded, has identified its 639-3 ISO code as "nap" meaning neapolitan, but mentioned there are some scholars who disagree with it, and that the code may be wrong. I have requested the theses of the scholars. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

List of resources

Basically just a list of websites or books with something helpful.

Websites

• https://archive.org/stream/idialettidellere00devo/idialettidellere00devo_djvu.txt (Italian)
• http://vastesiworld.org/culture/vastesi-language/
• http://www.vastospa.it/html/home/home_vasto.htm
• http://www.vastospa.it/html/tradizione/voc_a.htm (Dictionary)
• http://www.vastospa.it/html/tradizione/vocab_a_it.htm (Dictionary)
• http://www.vastospa.it/html/notizie_dal_mondo/au_dialetto_vastese.htm (Contains some words)

Books

• Iuliano, Susanna (2010). Vite italiane : Italian lives in Western Australia. Crawley, W.A.: UWA Pub. p. 133. ISBN 9781921401503.
• Torres-Tamarit, Francesc; van Oostendorp, Marc; Linke,, Kathrin (2016). Approaches to Metaphony in the Languages of Italy. Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG. p. 151. ISBN 9783110366310.

Discussion

@Mr KEBAB: I have found several new sites, two of which are dictionaries! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:49, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

What???

This page is quite ridiculous. Vasto's dialect is perfectly part of Eastern Abruzzese, among Neapolitan Language / South Italian Language. There isn't any reason to consider Vasto's dialect as a distinct language. --Jamala (talk) 10:23, 9 June 2018 (UTC)