Talk:List of current viceregal representatives of the Crown

Purpose

I don't get what the purpose of this page is. These aren't Commonwealth Heads of Government, so CHOGM is irrelevant. We already have the article Governor-General for a list of Governors General. Bastin 10:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It is to act solely a list page, the Governor-General page does not have a list of the people listed here at all, and it's focus is on explanation of the role. It does not have a clear list of individuals on it at all. You are right, however, CHOGM is not relevant here, my mistake with that. Outback the koala (talk) 04:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

So... what on Earth connects these people? The Presidents are most certainly not 'Representatives of the Queen'. In fact, the monarch is not represented in Commonwealth republics at all, as High Commissioners represent governments, not the Crown. Bastin 12:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Scope of the article

A couple of statements have been tagged as needing citations. One is saying these people are not Heads of State - I think it would be better if we just omit that bit entirely. The other one is more significant. Do Canadian Lieutenant Governors represent the Queen directly? If not, they would be in the same category as Australian Administrators, and we would need to decide whether to include them both, or exclude them. StAnselm (talk) 03:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

And since Lieutenant Governors serve "during the pleasure of the Governor General,"[1] it would seem that they should not be included. StAnselm (talk) 03:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

While Governors of the Australian states#Federation explains that the situation with Australian governors is the opposite. StAnselm (talk) 03:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

That was the case until Maritime Bank v. Receiver-General of New Brunswick (1882), when it was decided that they represent the Crown directly, as stated in the article on Lieutenant Governors that you linked. Bastin 22:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Diamond Jubilee of Queen Elizabeth II which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Change to Charles III or keep as Elizabeth II?

With the death of Elizabeth II, I think a direction for this page needs to be chosen:

Should it be towards the current representatives of the now King? The last representatives of Queen Elizabeth (as is currently the case)? Or all of her representatives during her reign?

Whichever way is agreed on, I think the page will need to be amended to reflect the intended subject 151.210.166.23 (talk) 02:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

See below—requested move discussion. Compusolus (talk) 05:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 12 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. UtherSRG (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

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List of viceregal representatives of Elizabeth II → ? – This is not a list of all the viceregal representatives of Elizabeth II throughout her entire reign, and is rather a list of current viceregal representatives of the current British monarch. Compusolus (talk) 04:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 16:17, 19 September 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. wbm1058 (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Relisting comment. I've changed this to a "name being decided below" discussion due to multiple changes to the proposed target during the discussion. The closing administrator should determine (1) whether there is a consensus to move, and (2) if there is a consensus to move, which title to move to.
  • Original proposed target: List of viceregal representatives of Charles III
  • New target (changed 10:18, 13 September 2022): List of current viceregal representatives of the British monarch
  • Newer target (changed 03:16, 19 September 2022): List of current viceregal representatives of Charles III – wbm1058 (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment: I think the article should list all viceregal representatives who served during her reign, just like list of prime ministers of Elizabeth II. The King's representatives should be listed in a separate article. Peter Ormond 💬 11:15, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

If the consensus turns out to be otherwise, then I would support List of viceregal representatives of The Crown. Peter Ormond 💬 23:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

That title is good, but a bit too UK centric. The sort of readers looking up the vice regal positions may very well not know that there is only one “The Crown” in the world, if indeed that is true. For this reason I prefer “Commonwealth realms”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

If this is the approach most people end up wanting to take, I think the specific names of the most recent office holders should be removed from the tables. So the page will just list e.g. Governor-General of [insert place here], etc. People could then find the specific office holders by clicking through to the linked list pages.151.210.166.23 (talk) 00:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

It could also then include mentions of representatives she had earlier during her reign, e.g. governors-general of Ceylon, Nigeria, etc.151.210.166.23 (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Ormond This isn't a list of all viceregal representatives who served during her reign, nor was it intended to be; lists of those are available through the 'List' link next to each position listed in the article. Compusolus (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• • I think this article was never intended to list all of them. It would include every governors-general/governors/lieutenant governor/administrators/commissioners etc during 1952 to 2022 which would be a huge list.--Mike Rohsopht (talk) 12:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  I must agree with Peter. A individual one should be made for Charles. AviationEnzo (talk) 12:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• There is no point in having two separate articles, so this article should cover both reigns, so "List of viceregal reresentatives of the British monarch" (or similar).---Speminallium (talk) 11:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Seems a poorly and vaguely scoped article in the first place. Governors-general aren't really viceroys, and that's absolutely not the common names for them. And it's not clear if the intention is for this to be a historical list (in which case it has the wrong contents), or a "current govs" one (in which case it has the wrong title). Simplest fix would be a move to a List of current Governors-General of the Commonwealth realms "and make good". 109.255.211.6 (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Perhaps it would be more better to move this article to List of viceregal representatives of the British monarch, as per @[[User:Speminallium|Speminallium]'s suggestion above. Compusolus (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• List of viceregal representatives of Charles III or List of viceregal representatives of the British monarch. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

My only concern for changing to something like "British monarch" or "the Crown" is that they greatly expand the scope of the article back in time. Unless "current viceregal representatives" is specified.151.210.166.23 (talk) 00:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Hence my suggestion to that effect ("current" and "Commonwealth realms", as well as avoiding 'viceregal representatives' as inaccurate and not the WP:COMMONNAME). Arguably if we get rid of "list" the "current" part is more naturally implied, so we might simply have Governors-General of the Commonwealth realms, or some variation on that. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 02:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

As noted in the article they aren't all called Governors-General though. There are also: Governors, Lieutenant Governors, Queen's/King's Representatives, Administrators, and Commissioners. But as long as people could agree on an appropriate term, I could support this sort of approach.151.210.166.23 (talk) 02:33, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Right, the scoping issue was part of what I suggesting we should "make good". The laundry-list is rather more extensive than I'd realized, I must admit! Do we have appropriate sources that these are indeed all considered "viceregal representatives"? We don't have an article on that topic, and the viceroy article really only touches on it in passing, and only mentions the governors-general in its discussion of its {{main}} link to here. Some of the articles on the individual positions don't use the term either. If this is the list we really want, and that term is accurate and the best available one, then fair enough. The scope in time issue we should make clear in the lead section, if any new title appears to potentially expand it; but it's not like we listed all the reps of QE2 either, despite the article title potentially bearing that interpretation. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 03:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, agreed—List of current viceregal representatives of the British monarch would be a more suitable title. Compusolus (talk) 10:08, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

If there is an issue with the term "viceregal representatives", why not just use "representatives"? Looking at the websites for the gg of Canada, Australia & NZ, they use the term King's/Queen's representative, and I notice the Template:Representatives of the monarch in Commonwealth realms and Dominions uses this phrasing.151.210.166.23 (talk) 10:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

That could work. Nor am I doggedly opposed to "viceregal" reps, just so we can source and gloss it properly. But if simply "representative" is the more common terms, I'd be include to go with that. (I guess you might also argue that "viceroy of the monarch" is also kinda redundant.) 109.255.211.6 (talk) 15:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Should be List of viceregal representatives of Charles III, and updated whenever the monarch changes. The monarch operates in a seperate capacity for each realm. thorpewilliam (talk) 11:39, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: Monarch in question is not just the British monarch, but monarch of many countries. --Spekkios (talk) 23:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

@Spekkios Would you support List of viceregal representatives of Charles III? Compusolus (talk) 23:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the most appropriate title for this article in it's current state, in my opinion.--Spekkios (talk) 02:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Spekkios What about adding 'current', so 'List of current viceregal representatives of Charles III'? Compusolus (talk) 03:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes I would support that if the article remains a list of current representatives. --Spekkios (talk) 03:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Set up a new list for Charles. Andrewa (talk) 08:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Andrewa That, I politely indicate, makes little sense. This article would then have to be renamed to 'List of viceregal representatives of Elizabeth II at the time of her death' or similar, as it lists only the current viceregal representatives. I think the prevailing view is that it should be changed to Charles III, as they are now his representatives, no? Compusolus (talk)!

That, I reply, makes no sense to me. The article does need work to properly reflect its current title, but I do not assume as you do that this is impossible or at least ill-advised. The current title is a good topic. Your suggested title is I hope not a serious suggestion.

I will of course go with any consensus reasonably assessed by the closer, and suggest you do too, rather than assessing it for yourself, as you are involved. I observe that people who do this always seem to assess consensus as supporting their own view, as you have. Admittedly, sometimes they do get it right. Andrewa (talk) 12:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't propose that the title is changed to 'List of viceregal representatives of Elizabeth II at the time of her death'—I think it would be much better if it were changed to 'List of viceregal representatives of Charles III'. They are no longer Elizabeth II's viceregal representatives, and this isn't an exhaustive list of those who served as viceregal representatives during her reign (and thus no need to create a new article for Charles III).Compusolus (talk) 12:15, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I was going by your statement This article would then have to be renamed to 'List of viceregal representatives of Elizabeth II at the time of her death' or similar. I did say, you can't be serious. Andrewa (talk) 17:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: Following above conversations, particularly my chat with 109.255.211.6, my suggestions would be either:
  • Representatives of Charles III, with minimal need for amendments to the contents of the page; or
  • List of representatives of Elizabeth II, meaning a list of her representatives during her lifetime (not the individual specific people, but rather the positions, e.g. Governor general of Canada, Governor-general of Australia, Governor-general of Ceylon, Queen's Representative of the Cook Islands, etc. Individuals are already mentioned on their respective List of... pages), which would involve more substantial amendments to the contents of the page.

I would perhaps lean toward the first option, and potentially a separate page for the latter could be made. 151.210.166.23 (talk) 14:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I would agree with the first option, if it were 'List of...'. Compusolus (talk) 23:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Vote

List of current viceregal representatives of Charles III

In favour: 1

Compusolus (talk) 03:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Against: 0

Please add your vote by editing the applicable number by +1, and signing your username below.

• Comment: I very much doubt that the closer will pay any attention at all to that unsigned innovation above counting the !votes, per wp:NHC. I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 08:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support List of current Governors-General of the Commonwealth realms, and urge expansion to include all governors-general past and present in a sortable table. Sorting by end date will groups all current governors-general. Sorting by country would very likely open often useful to the reader. I’m assuming it’s mostly correct that these “representatives” are mostly called “Governor-General”, but if not, another column can hold the official title. Remove the name of the current monarch, because they are not personal representatives of that person. Pages like this should endeavour to be timeless, not “current affairs”, not needing title changes due to predictable changes in the monarch. Invite user:Dicklyon to advise me on the best capitalisation. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  I see no reason to cap governors-general. Do you? Dicklyon (talk) 23:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  No. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  Support List of governors-general of the Commonwealth realms, and List of viceregal representatives of Charles III, both work, and the current does not.

  Weak oppose adding “current” to the title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:23, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe But that aren't all Governors-General. Elizabeth II (and now Charles III) has representatives that aren't Governors-General. What would be wrong with updating the title, only changing 'Elizabeth II' to 'Charles III'? Compusolus (talk) 00:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

That creates the impression that there's a position called "Governor-General of the Commonwealth realms". GoodDay (talk) 01:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Right, capitalizing could create that impression. Dicklyon (talk) 01:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Lower-casing, too. GoodDay (talk) 02:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay I agree—I think it would be best if the current title was kept intact apart from 'Elizabeth II' being changed to 'Charles III'.Compusolus (talk) 05:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Suggest closing this RM, and wait for someone to make a formal proposal for a specific title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:24, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 1 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 06:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

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List of viceregal representatives of Elizabeth II → List of current viceregal representatives of the Crown – There seems to be consensus in the above RM that the list should not include all of the Queen's viceroys and that the page should be renamed to indicate a new reign. Hence, I propose that the page be moved to this title as it doesn't mention a particluar monarch, and all the present viceregal representatives in all the realms can be listed without worrying about the demise of the Crown.

Some will say that "The Crown" in the title is ambiguous, but the article about it is itself located at The Crown, and a rename was rejected last year. Some suggest using "British monarch", but it's worth noting that the viceroys in non-UK realms represent the monarch in right of each realm, not as "British monarch". Peter Ormond 💬 21:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 02:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The inclusion of "current" is useful WP:PRECISION to indicate the specific scope of this page. No strong preference for "the Crown" vs. "Charles III"; "Charles III" is probably more WP:RECOGNIZABLE as representing the British crown specifically, but "the Crown" is more future-proof. On the whole, I think my top choice would be the move as initially proposed. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: While I agree the article name should be changed, I think "Charles III" would be clearer. At least in NZ "the Crown" in the most common context actually refers to the Government. As this page is not directed to Government representatives, having "the Crown" in the title could be misleading or ambiguous. I don't think having to change the title again later down the line, e.g. when Charles III is no longer king, would be too arduous, as it's not something that's going to happen too frequently.151.210.162.19 (talk) 23:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support: It is possible that Charles will live to see his silver jubilee, as his immediate ancestors lived into their late 90s. So changing it once or twice every generation is not arduous. Notwisconsin (talk) 13:47, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.