Talk:List of rulers in Wales

Youtube video discussing this article

Consider this Youtube video discussing issues with this page. There may be edits in response to this video or based on it. (There already has, citing this video) This article indeed may have issues long unaddressed, and such a video may have valid criticisms, but not wholly reliable alone. I am not a history person Regards DankJae 01:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

If Annun Ddu (or Anwn Ddu or Antun Ddu) really is a bastardization of Mark Antony's name, would the creator of this video have to formally publish his findings for this list to be updated? Wikipedia doesn't cite youtube videos, although its thesis is convincing; the geneaology listing Antun Ddu as Cleopatra's lover and father of Aurelian is apocryphal to say the least. The only copy of the geneaology I could find online is http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id129.html so I don't know whether this is the source for this article's current Annun Ddu references Chegler (talk) 05:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The biggest problem here is the format of the article. It seems to be a list composed of people mentioned in genealogies or noted in saints lives as kings. It should be based on secondary sources who discuss the individual kingdoms and their history, which specifically state they are kings, rather than articles which report mention of them in traditional sources. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

A clear distinction between the historical and invented/legendary rulers would make sense, maybe leading to a separate article along the lines of List of legendary rulers of Cornwall, List of legendary kings of Britain, List of legendary kings of Sweden, and List of legendary kings of Denmark. --Yodin^T 12:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

If a self-styled historian wants to make changes or improvements to this article, surely they should come here to discuss it? At the moment this is just a random video on social media. Sionk (talk) 14:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The point is that people reading this website would get the idea that these people existed rather than being names culled from genealogies and sometimes OR cobbled together from various sources. It seems a lot of this page goes back to https://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com , which is a blog from the 2000's. It's a crap article. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, it isn't as though anyone who has ever been subjected to the task of doing this sort of research cannot recognize that the form of his criticisms is perfectly valid. The implication which he does not make but which seems pretty obvious to me is that these look like primary-sourced lists of rulers which have been simply copied in, via whatever intermediaries, with whatever mistakes and fanciful accretions along the way, without any kind of historical assessment. Dismissing it as "just a random video", which it isn't in any case, simply reinforces the appearance that WP editors prefer to ignore outside criticism. Mangoe (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

At this edit I have been bold, though possibly not bold enough. I have removed dates (spurious for the earlier and legendary individuals) and any individual who did not have either a reference or an active wikilink. That's quite a trim for an article full of original research. I hope it is a step on the way to a truly useful article. Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably for the best, the article is "List of rulers in Wales" not "List of names of people who might have existed and might have ruled Wales" Chegler (talk) 03:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

In case it's of any use to anyone, here are the sources listed in the description of that video:

Bartrum, P.C. (1993). A Welsh Classical Dictionary : People in History and Legend up to about A.D. 1000. The National Library of Wales, pp.1-21, 238-239. See names.
Guy, B. (2020). Medieval Welsh genealogy : an introduction and textual study. The Boydell Press, pp.1–158.
Matthews, J.F. (1983). Macsen, Maximus and Constantine. Welsh History Review, 11(4).
The following were consulted, but contained no information, as mentioned:
Davies, J. (2007). A History of Wales. London: Penguin.
Maund, K. (2006). The Welsh Kings. 3rd ed. The History Press Ltd
Charles-Edwards, T.M. (2013). Wales and the Britons, 350-1064. Oxford: OUP.
— Cambrian Chronicles, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mlGDZ1ZDFI archived

And I've done some more digging and I've found links to where these sources can be accessed.

• The sources which apparently have information:
  • Bartrum, P.C. (1993). A Welsh Classical Dictionary : People in History and Legend up to about A.D. 1000. The National Library of Wales, pp.1-21, 238-239. See names.
    • PDF version from National Library of Wales archived
      • 2: A-B contains pages 1-21 archived
      • 5: D-E-F contains pages 238-239 archived
  • Guy, B. (2020). Medieval Welsh genealogy : an introduction and textual study. The Boydell Press, pp.1–158.
    • Cambridge University Press link - this is available via the Wikipedia Library.
    • JSTOR link - unfortunately, this version isn't available via the Wikipedia Library.
  • Matthews, J.F. (1983). Macsen, Maximus and Constantine. Welsh History Review, 11(4).
    • https://journals.library.wales/view/1073091/1078288/454 see pages 431-448 (images 455-472) archived
      • plain text tab appears to work in the archive, takes a moment to load the text when you change page though
• The sources which apparently didn't have any information
  • Davies, J. (2007). A History of Wales. London: Penguin.
    • https://archive.org/details/historyofwales0000davi 1993 edition
    • https://archive.org/details/historyofwales0000davi_g1b0 1994 edition
  • Maund, K. (2006). The Welsh Kings. 3rd ed. The History Press Ltd
    • https://archive.org/details/welshkingswarrio0000maun 3rd edition, but different publisher
  • Charles-Edwards, T.M. (2013). Wales and the Britons, 350-1064. Oxford: OUP.
    • https://archive.org/details/walesbritons35010000char

Hopefully that's of some use 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 13:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Way forward - Task force?

I see there has been a necessary trimming of the list, though it was necessarily a bit arbitrary. But the article is still largely unsourced and desperately needs work. I think we need the following:

1. Citations supporting each king mentioned, preferably from RS relating to each individual kingdom. This should include marginally-supported individuals where RS suggest they probably existed and were kings, though they should be marked as "possibly legendary" if the RS says so.

2. Some recognition of the historicity debates about kings and legendary individuals based on RS on Welsh royal genealogies.

3. Possible inclusion of kings who are legendary described as such where RS do so.

It's a big job, but thanks to the contribution of the aforementioned YouTuber, there are lots of eyes on this page. Any volunteers? We could probably start with step 1, as that will form the stable basis for step 2 and 3.

Any volunteers to take on particular kingdoms? I'll have a go at Brycheiniog to start with. Claim your polity below.... Boynamedsue (talk) 08:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

List of legendary kings of Britain and List of legendary rulers of Cornwall existence, may justify legendary rulers being a separate article, rather than included here alongside those more verifiable. But I am not an expert on the topic. DankJae 01:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Boynamedsue the Dictionary of Welsh Biography ({{cite DWB) sources are used in most of the historical Welsh Royalty articles, although I'm told a potential old source seeing as it was published in 1959. Would the DWB references suffice for the majority of Gwynedd Kings and many other rulers? Cltjames (talk) 19:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I finished the Bartrum 1993 references. Wonder about how to approach the rest, because his book only goes to the year 1000. Guessing DWB is good enough. But wanted to ask about duplicate entries... Would it not make sense to remove duplicate entries and create new headings based on multiple Kingdoms, e.g. Rhodri Mawr- Gwynedd, Powys & Ceredigion. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn- Wales. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn- Gwynedd & Powys...? Cltjames (talk) 05:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

@Richard Keatinge:. I finished your Bartrum reference, then I added DWB to almost complete the bunch, with {{citation tags for the monarchs who are in neither references. Then I removed duplicate entries for the Kings listed under multiple Kingdom adding a new ==Wales section, WP:BOLD I believe. Please, tell me what you think (I believe the article works better like this)? No need to revert, the edits make sense, we can talk, and I can amend the Wales entries if you feel something is wrong... Cltjames (talk) 15:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Support needed for status as ruler?

At this edit I have removed one name. Bartrum mentions that he was a name "in the line of princes" without stating that he necessarily ruled anything himself. He is not the only one in this situati|on. I am inclined to remove most, possibly all, of these, but what do others think? Richard Keatinge (talk) 23:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't feel that this article benefits from mentioning names of people about whose status and deeds we know nothing, and who are mentioned only in a modern source which aims to mention every recorded name in its purview. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:08, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I have therefore again removed a list of names who are not appropriately reported to have ruled anything, and also the improbable *"Dyfed" ap Macsen Wledig, possibly Anthun (Annun), of very dubious reality, see the reference in Bartrum. Also deleted is *Annun Ddu (semi-legendary) fl. late 4th century{sfn|Bartrum|1993|p=20}, whom Bartrum actually notes simply as "legendary".

If we are to include everyone who is "in the line of" a mediaeval ruler, or appears dubiously in the more imaginative genealogies, then this article would include, at least, a large minority of the current British population. Please limit this article to its subject.

This process has also got rid of a duplicate Arthen, whose correct page number was attributed to the wrong authority (he's in Lloyd, not Bartrum). Please take appropriate care when editing. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Petty kingdoms

@Richard Keatinge The problem is there were many Petty kingdoms which did have significance at the time. You just have to look at the map used and see Ergyng which technically isn't in Wales, but then another border example is the Kingdom of Ewyas which is a part of Monmouthsire. Or in Wales, Tegeingl which was a Lorship. Therefore if the article wants better clarity, it should be able to specify in the list that it is a King list of Kingdoms not just rulers, thus ignoring the petty Kingdoms, or even better add another half dozen or so smaller kingdoms and Lordships to the King list. Cltjames (talk) 20:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Please see Template:Welsh kingdoms for full list of Kingdoms. It would mean a lot more work to add all the Kingdoms, but it should also be seen as necessary to add the full list of medieval rulers in Wales. Cltjames (talk) 06:03, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps you would be good enough to start a discussion on Template talk:Welsh kingdoms to find a consensus on what should be included. If you can generate a consensus of experienced editors in favor of your large expansion, then it would be reasonable to do it. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, thanks. So going back to what I said about Ewyas being a good inclusion as a petty Kingdom with historic importance (seeing as it was the supposed hiding place of Glyndwr for the years before he died), the former Kingdom was a realm divided between 2 countries, and is now represented by a border town in England (Ewyas Harold), however, part of the Vale of Ewyas is in Monmouthsire, Wales. Then, some petty Kingdoms such as Ergyng and Pengwern are now in what is England. So, the question is, would the current border dividing Wales and England be the cut of point for rulers in Wales? Or, is this list about Welsh rulers who were once in a Kingdom incorporated into the original boundaries of Wales, e.g. Pengwern a family seat for the Kings of Powys, today in Shropshire, England...? Cltjames (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

This is the talk page for List of rulers in Wales. To discuss petty kingdoms, a more appropriate place would be Template talk:Welsh kingdoms or perhaps Talk:Wales in the Early Middle Ages. Please take this discussion there. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes OK. But, I'm suggesting the petty kingdoms be added here to the list of rulers article, what is your opinion on that ? Furthermore, there isn't a consistency between the template and the article... Should they not be the same lists? Because the template has numerous other realms within Wales which have been exlcuded on the list of rulers article. Cltjames (talk) 15:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a list of rulers, not of their areas. Admittedly it would be convenient to have an agreed list of kingdoms which would then limit the list of their rulers, so it would be convenient if you get consensus on the logically anterior list of kingdoms. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Article's post-medieval purpose

Having completed the verification of the references for the most part (11 citations needed for 187 references), I also added the dates recorded for the rulers, now the article is more reliable. Then, I reordered the list to remove duplicate entries, including regions (multiple and petty kingdoms and lordships) so the list is almost full of the medieval rulers in Wales. However, the cut-off point seems to be around the 15th century, we have spoken about the BC rulers and they're supposed fictitious origins, but we haven't talked about the rulers between the 15th to 21st centuries, looking after the Principality; being, in chronological order: Kingdom of England, Kingdom of Great Britain, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, UK, Secretary of State for Wales, Welsh Government. I would like to bring another list to light- List of rulers of Bengal, it incorporates the king list and then a modern political list, is this something people would be aspiring to bring in leaders until the 21st century? Cltjames (talk) 13:44, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cltjames, This list recently moved to "in Wales" from "of Wales", highlighting the regionality of rulers than those covering all of Wales. Plus won't count politicians as "rulers". Anything else can be found at List of British monarchs and List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom. So I think keeping it medieval is fine. Links in a see also section to lets say List of first ministers of Wales and those above, could be added if you want. DankJae 13:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@DankJae ok, thanks done. However, still, the first ministers are situated in Wales, but it would be difficult to reference a transition without a leader in Wales for 600 years before the emergence of the Welsh government which is only a partial (devolved) government from London. Cltjames (talk) 14:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

May be add a short sentence after each of the see also links? i.e. List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom – Presided over Wales as a part of the United Kingdom from 1721.

But that may be excessive, in the end, the {{History of Wales}} template, you added, does also point to the order of polities. DankJae 14:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

That template even has a rulers section. DankJae 14:21, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Coats of arms

Not to throw another spanner in the works, but it's worth noting that most of the rulers listed in the article predate heraldry – Owain Gwynedd's arms are definitely anachronistic attributed arms, for example. Also, describing arms as belonging to 'kingdoms' and 'lordships' is potentially problematic as they generally belong to individuals or institutions.

The arms don't necessarily need to go, but they should be checked. Other images could also be used to illustrate the article, such as the remains of Llys Rhosyr, associated with the Aberffraw princes of Gwynedd, or Strata Florida Abbey, founded by Rhys ap Gruffydd. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope yes, your right about arms being attributed much later. I was going to find references for them, that's all. But, some are definitely from the era, e.g. royal houses. But if you have an idea about better imagery, then please go ahead. Cltjames (talk) 19:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)