Talk:List of Naruto characters/Archive 1

Significant changes

This page is currently incomplete. OBVIOUSLY. It has characters up to the letter M, and for some obscure reason, Iruka. I'll add the rest later, and then go handle Naruto geography and possibly, if I feel up to it, the worst headache of all- Naruto jutsu. -AceMyth 06:29, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Page now has all the characters. -- AceMyth 06:37, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Right, after searching for any indication of whether uploading approx. 100X100 pics of character faces to show how they look like falls under fair use or not, my (admittedly very limited) understanding of the workings of the fair use clause concluded that it does. If anybody thinks it does not, however, please leave a comment here (or in my talk:user page) so we can discuss it and so I won't start uploading the rest of the images. (I'm giving this three to four days). --AceMyth 00:10, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm going to add a bunch of short sentences explaining what their names mean in Japanese. Their name in Japanese are often written with self explanatory Kanji or from a (fitional or real) historical Ninjas. Enjoy!

Revth 17:08, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Article Length

I thought the article was getting a bit longer the more we elaborated, but, egads, at over 95kb it is now one of the 100 longest pages on Wikipedia, and by far the longest page about anything fictional. On the other hand, there are many characters on which we have nil data and really won't justify a page of their own.

What are we to do? Just deleting the article so nobody would be embarassed about obsessive fans causing an article about a fictional series to be longer than the article on George W. Bush is tempting, but obviously out of the question. :P Should we move more characters into pages of their own like Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke, while leaving the truly minor ones in this page? Or just leave things as they are and let people stumbling across the "longest pages" list see this among them and go "WTF"? AceMyth 16:46, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Their are some extremely insignificant characters in this artical such as "Ami", "Akane" "Gi'ichi" that shouldnt be in there. If you've seen the anime Naruto then you would know that they dont need to be in this artical as they heald very little purpose in Naruto.

Yeah, we could move the un important characters to another page. All the important characters have their picture by them.

This article really needs to be split into at least four separate ones. Can't this be done by the 'affiliation' of the characters in some manner? Alai 20:02, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So I copied and pasted the page and deleted all the minor characters, even the gray stuff, but that still only gets the filesize down to about 100k from 118k. I think the list should be divided up alphabetically, with a link at the end of each to the next section. Dividing up by affiliation won't really work since most of the characters are from Konoha anyway.

Removing characters would be wrong. Read the bottom of this page about migrating major characters to their own articles. Havok 2 July 2005 23:24 (UTC)

1. Make a page for all minor characters without their own pages, then - 2. Reduce thecurrent page of All characters (by alphabetical order) down to a list of names. Everyone would be listed in the all character list, but it is like a grocery list in that there is only the family and given names, to learn anything more, one would have to click. If it's a minor character, then the click would lead to the minor character page. This would be teh suck but Naruto have lots of characters. Maybe there should be another page for the list of All characters? - T'Sura (have several accounts all defunct due to constant forgeting of passwords and lack of care to retrieve them...) 11:05pm, 12 Dec, 2005 (Eastern).

Character migration

Merged material from Uchiha into Uchiha Clan, from Uchiha Obito into Uchiha Obito and from Kyubi and Kyuubi to Kyūbi no Yōko.
--JadziaLover 12:05, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We should start migrating characters to their own articles. Let's make a list of the most important ones and start. Havok 2 July 2005 23:21 (UTC)

We should at least do the Rookie nine, the Sannin and Team Gai--JadziaLover 2 July 2005 23:24 (UTC)

Agreed, though take care to disambiguate where necessary. --AceMyth July 3, 2005 00:34 (UTC)

Decent job with transferring Shikamaru. I would like to raise two issues though:

1. Once we're done migrating major characters, I intend to move whatever will be left in this page to "minor Naruto characters", and put the links to the rest of the characters in a "characters" section right in Naruto (manga), which will make for much more intuitive access. Any objections?

2. Because this page was so big, people seem to have refrained from expanding on characters with great expansion potential (Like Tsunade, who has, oh I dunno, only a whole arc centered on her). Solution: When these become their own pages, people will be more likely to expand them. Problem: The moment they are moved, the collective wikipedian mind goes fictional+stub+ihaven'teverheardofit=omgfancruftVfD. What are we to do? Perhaps a pre-emptive "This article needs cleanup/expansion" template? --AceMyth July 3, 2005 02:28 (UTC)

I can make a cleanup naruto template, I've allready made the naruto info box on the right side of the articles. Havok 3 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)

Btw AceMyth, please try and use sections in the articles. Having a clump of text looks messy. I cleaned up the Shikamaru article. Havok 3 July 2005 10:47 (UTC)

It wasn't me who migrated the Shikamaru article. --AceMyth July 3, 2005 13:40 (UTC)

Perhaps we should also make seperate pages for the Hyūga and Uchiha clans. There is a lot to be told about them.--JadziaLover 3 July 2005 11:26 (UTC)

I'd love to stay and continue migrating/editing, but unfortunately due to Army duty I will be gone until next Tuesday. I'm looking forward to helping again when I'm back! --AceMyth July 5, 2005 05:47 (UTC)

Cleanup and Organization

One, shouldn't the main characters go first before the minor ones? Two, instances of "chuunin" are now "chûnin" (note the circumflex) as it is spelled that way in the Naruto manga in Shonen Jump. WhisperToMe 20:53, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This page has regrettably become very choppy and bloated. There were several factors contributing to this and I concluded that a lot of improvement could be done on that front with little damage to the article's quality. I have:

• Removed all the quotes. Many of them were irrelevant, conveyed little of the character's essence and obviously a product of the mistaken notion that ALL characters must have quotations. That is not to say that quotes do not belong at all, but I think it would be best to integrate them with the text about the character. It also serves as a good test for whether they are notable quotes. The idiot who came up with the idea of putting arbitrary quotes in the article in the first place must have been really - oh right, that was me.

• Removed all information about characters which already have pages of their own. Main characters already have detailed mini-sypnoses over at Naruto (manga) where they are much more likely to be searched for.

The article is still huge, and whether there is grounds for inclusion of screamingly non-notable characters (such as the entirety of the deceased Uchiha clan) is up for debate... But it is now less huge. --AceMyth 20:52, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

I've come to love tables, how about we make one for each Country, we could put it in a new article called List of Naruto characters and turn this one into Non-notable Naruto characters Much less fuz and it would look cleaner. Just have to move all the notable ones to their own article. Havok 23:45, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's pretty much the plan, excpet the title "Non-notable Naruto characters" is, IMO, not quite the best name this page could possibly be endowed with to ensure its future in Wikipedia (you might as well call it Vanity link repository of Naruto characters related POV Original research and be done with it). --AceMyth 00:49, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

How about his: We will seperate them according to the following:

• Main character (same as of now)
• Konoha ninjas
• Other village's ninjas and minor characters
• Villians and Akatsuki (which will be merged with the article Akatsuki)

Article name

Taking into consideration Wikipedia naming conventions, wouldn't it be better to name the article, "List of Naruto characters"? Unfortunately, I am sure that many websites already link to the "Naruto characters" article, but I think that the change is necessary for standardization, and will move it unless anyone objects within two weeks. --Iamunknown 06:52, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I see your point, but usually when you make a list you only give a few key info pieces and a link to more info for each item, while this page gives all the info we intend to provide straight away, thus making the title "list" a bit inappropriate.

I'm giving serious consideration to the idea that maybe if we

1. Weeded out all the silly minor characters and exiled them to either obscurity or a "List of minor Naruto Characters",
2. Gave the remaining characters pages of their own (all of which are currently redirects), and
3. Made this page a list linking to the individual character pages, with a line of key info after each name,

Various problems this page has right now would be solved. Some characters which really need more elaboration could get it, the "trivia" bits wouldn't clog up the article, and this monster of a page would be broken up into easier to digest and coherent pieces. This would obviously have its drawbacks (Separate pages for fictional anime characters, OMG fancruft! Then again, this page has clearly already crossed that bridge anyway), but if we really are going to have Naruto information here on the Wiki, I think this could end up being a better solution. (See for example the pages for Kakashi, Naruto and Sasuke, which grew to what they are now simply because they were given their own pages.) What I do wonder about is where the line between minor and non-minor characters is drawn, exactly... --AceMyth 02:44, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

I think that changing the artical would throw alot of people off course. Me, and alot of other people have this linked to our websites. Also, I refer back to this page daily for reference. I'm sorry to trouble you but I would like the page to remain how it is. Thanks.

I don't think this should be one of the things taken into consideration in Wikipedia anyway, but even if we do, this problem could easily be solved by making "Naruto characters" redirect into the new page. --AceMyth 02:46, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

I propose we move Naruto characters to Characters of Naruto in accordance with Wikipedia's naming policy. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 15:34, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Article is going to be moved. I'll need help cleaning up the double redirects. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 16:05, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Err... it will be moved. Something just came up. It'll probably be done in an hour or so. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 16:06, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Added Zaku to the list

I suppose you missed Zaku, even though you mentioned him on Dosu's entry. I added him to the list, although if you want to compliment the information, do so. Keops 18:30, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

About Romaniztion (and the Hyuga edit)

I don't have access to anything Viz publishes, so I picked the circumflex because I believed it was the closest approximation to how "Hyuga" was supposed to be pronounced (while the macron denotes merely a long vowel, the circumflex also indicates stress put on it if I'm not mistaken, which is apparently the case here). That aside, regardless of what the best romanization is of all terms that seem to be problematic in this section ("Mangekyo" is one example), we need to just decide on one and make all instances uniform. The alternating usage between different translations and transliterations is becoming more problematic as more contributions are made to these pages and some standard should be decided on before they become a total mess.

Well, use the Viz romanizations, but subsitute circumflexes used for macrons notate "proper" romanizations in parenthenses. The Viz versions of Naruto are available at North American bookstores. WhisperToMe 01:34, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Viz Translations

Okay, I can understand going with the Viz translation when they're reasonable so they may be recognised by american readers of the manga, but going as far as using the utterly non-sequitur "Evil Eye" for "Byakugan"? If they went on to translate "Rasengan" into "Whirly thingamajig" would we use that for the Wikipedia article, too?... 217.132.219.194 05:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes :) - But it will be known that (this and this) is the name in the original Japanese. WhisperToMe 06:01, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC) Also, if Viz finds a better name for the Byakugan later in the manga, then "evil Eye" as a general reference will be changed to that name, AND it will be known that Viz at first used "evil eye" but then changed it to a more suitable name. WhisperToMe 06:05, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The canon is the Japanese manga and I really think we should be as loyal as possible to it, rather than to the Viz translation (which, let's face it, is rather shaky at points) just because we happen to know English better than Japanese. Also note that most naming disputes in Wikipedia are solved by the "Google test", i.e. which name retrieves more relevant results and is therefore apparently the more accepted one.

"Bunshin no Jutsu" +Naruto: 2700 results. "Art of the Doppleganger" +Naruto: 134 results (The first five of which, I noticed, are people COMPLAINING about the translation, and I wouldn't be surprised if many more were similar).

"Byakugan" +Hyuga: 754 results. "Evil Eye" +Hyuga: 16 results.

And similar results for all Vizisms. 217.132.219.194 06:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Usually resolved by the google test ;) - Keep in mind that the manga spellings will eventually "overpower" the English translation names. WhisperToMe 06:43, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, remember that anonymous users (217, that means you) may campaign, but in most cases, they may not vote in important issues. WhisperToMe 06:47, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If Viz persists in using "Evil Eye", then we shall still use it anyway. Remember, Wikipedia shall be descriptive, NOT proscriptive... WhisperToMe 06:54, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

1. If and when the Viz english translations become the more popular notations of anything in the series, I agree we should use them. As it stands, though, the Viz translations' are practically obscure among most people familiar with Naruto.

2. I don't get why "Descriptive" applies to the Viz translations any more than it applies to the original canon.

3. I'm the user AceMyth but I just didn't bother to log in thus far. Does this change anything?... 217.132.219.194 07:01, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC) (Just popping in to confirm that I am, in fact, him, er, I mean, me AceMyth 07:17, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC))

As for Zabuza, uhm, "Momochi" has been used as both a surname and a given name, so I can't really tell if he's been called my his last name or his first name by most people... WhisperToMe 12:36, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Descriptive applies to Viz here because Viz publishes the manga in English. This is the English Wikipedia, and I believe the Viz names can be used to describe all adaptations of Naruto just fine. WhisperToMe 15:55, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I disagree about "descriptive" applying to Viz in this case just because they are publishing the Manga in America and this being the English wikipedia. It is, after all, the English language wikipedia, not the English Culture Wikipedia. English is a means, not an end; Or at least it should be, or else how exactly did we end up having an article on White Day? After all, it never got imported to any English-speaking country?

And please tell me we aren't going to have anything along the lines of "Thursday was named in honour of Thor"?...

I see reason enough not to use the Viz translation even without considering the google test. That the Viz translations are used in conversation- apparently- only in sentences such as "Luckily I wasn't drinking any milk when Neji went "The evil eye!" " certainly doesn't help. AceMyth 19:17, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

1. No, it's not the English culture Wikipedia, and things are written about things in, say, other cultures. But as it is the English language Wikipedia, oftentimes the most common name is used. Notice that if we did a google count on the names of the Naruto characters, we'd get a very haphazard mix of results (e.g. "Kankurou" is less popular than "Kankuro" but "Hyuuga" is more popular than "Hyuga".) - Because of the haphazard naming on internet fan sites and the fact that anime fans in general prefer to use wapuro so they usually use it no matter what anime they are dealing with, I like using the names in English adaptations to get a clear standard.

2. Conversation to me is enough in a manga. Everything is done by conversation....

Sasuke in his mind simply yells "Evil Eye!" while the veins near Neji's eyes swell. We cannot refuse to acknowledge that Sasuke called Neji's eye that. However, I won't do anything about THAT as that may simply be Sasuke's nickname or whatever for it, now that I've looked back at it. I'll keep it "Bakyugan" and I'll wait for more issues to see what I'll do about it.

3. Huh? Why are you pointing that link to the guy in the comic book? Oh, and the Wikipedia article on Thor states that "Thor's Day" became "Thursday".

4. I'm going to wait till later issues to see how they resolve WhisperToMe 19:32, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

3. Okay, never mind about Thor, what you said about getting a clear standard makes him a moot point, but...

I heartily agree that we need a clear standard, but I don't think using the viz translations, of all things, as this standard is a good idea. The thing with standards is that they are, well, standard. The less current usage will need to conform so a new standard can be reached, the more worthy of being a standard it is. For example suppose you are the headmaster in a school and you decide that from now on everybody should wear the same color of shirt. If 60% of the students like to wear bright green and 40% like to wear dark green, obviously mid-green would be a better choice for the uniform colors than, say, blue... catch my drift?

After all, Viz are only Viz. All they did was purchase a license and this does not automatically make them the absolute authority on Naruto terminology, especially seeing as these Naruto articles- as stated in the first line of the main one- are about the Japanese manga/anime. Think for example, in theory, about what could happen if companies started purchasing the license on other English-speaking countries and each one came up with their own translation- what in the world would we do? "Amazing! Naruto has, in only one week, mastered the Whirly Thingamajig/Sphere Vortex/Storm-eye/Swirly-go-boom!". ;P So I think we should stick with standards based on the Japanese original and common literal translations. Perhaps a "Naruto in translation" page/segment or something along these lines? AceMyth 23:21, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

Companies DO purchase licenses for English-language material and port them to other countries. And names DO get changed. E.G. Donald Duck is known as Aku Ankka in Finland.

For an article for Donald in the Finnish encyclopedia, Donald Duck would be best known under the finnish name (Aku Ankka) so the Finnish encyclopedia uses that name.

Now, we can make an English manga section on the main Naruto article, but after a few additional issues of Shonen Jump come to the door and after I read some of the graphic novels, I think we should make the English manga spellings default.

WhisperToMe 00:21, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See: http://sv.wiki.x.io/wiki/Musse_Pigg WhisperToMe 00:46, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, exactly. The white talking duck is best known among the Finnish as "Aku Ankka", and currently, the X-ray-vision-advanced-bloodline-thingie is best known as "Byakugan", among speakers of all languages.

There are groups offering scanned translations of Naruto manga, who use different, much more logical translations. Why should we use Viz's instead of theirs? I mean, Viz's translations are by far not more widely used than the other ones- and the only thing that's left as a reason is that Viz happens to have lots of money so they bought the license. I think Wikipedia articles should strive to being, first and foremost, informative- and this particular one, plain and simple, isn't going to be informative if it's full of terms nobody's familiar with, no matter how financially-approved they are. AceMyth 01:15, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

Yer talking about scanlations. There is no way a person doing a scanlation can buy the license for Naruto. And scanlations can have their errors too. In addition, Viz is 50% owned by Shueisha, so of course they get the license. Wikipedia articles ARE being informative by explaining how the thingie is known in the original Japanese. Wouldn't this be informative enough?

Evil Eye (known as Byakūgan, or White Eye, in the original Japanese)

though...

Byakūgan, or White Eye (the Evil Eye in the English manga)

'sides, they may find a more suitable name for it once Hinata vs. Neji gets translated. WhisperToMe 01:22, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Either of the two examples you gave would be definitely informative enough and should definitely be used for introductions/titles (though it may make them a bit cumbersome). The problem isn't, however, the introduction, but casual usage of the word. I mean, for example if you want to say Neji mastered the X-ray thingamajig- what are you going to say, that "Neji mastered the Byakūgan", that "Neji mastered the White Eye" or that "Neji mastered the Evil Eye"? Because "Neji mastered the Byakūgan, or White Eye (Known as "evil eye" in the English manga)" is definitely not a good solution, seeing as you're going to have to do that with every mention of every term in Naruto that has ever been translated by Viz into English =p

So for the time being I think we should do it like you suggested when it's not going to encumber the text, like in titles and the first time a term is mentioned and such- and use the currently more recognisable terms, i.e. romanisations, when casually referring to something. AceMyth 01:42, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

So, the question is which one should be used casually...

For games that have been released on the SNES and the Super Famicom (the SNES in Japan), I say XXX for the SFC/SNES. (The two have separate articles) WhisperToMe 01:52, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Look, just because Shueisha hired Viz for the job doesn't mean their translation is right. In fact some of it is so wtf-inducing, I'd tell them to get their money back. Why should we adhere to such laughably flawed translations? Should we then also quote things like the typoed line of Lee's from vol.5 about his "marital arts"? It's the official version, yes, but it's still wrong. I can understand the need for 'standard' translations, but using Viz's version as the source is going to give you substandard results. Kakumei 23:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I'm still here and I'm still in support of the position that category:Naruto should be purged of these ridiculous Vizisms. If it's not too late, that is, considering how thorough the campaign to Vizify it has been. --AceMyth 00:20, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Kakumei, shall we be descriptive? (There's always the sic marker) Which chapter was it in, anyway? I have the Shonen Jumps for the Lee stuff and I do not recall any "marital arts" things. And a lot of the reasons about why some Naruto fans are getting so angry over them (changing of attack names) seem minor to other people. WhisperToMe 01:05, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That line's in chapter 37 - volume 5 page 24 (panel 4 to be precise). It's not the only typo, though it is the most amusing. I bought the first five volumes because I wanted to support the official releases, but the quality was so poor I've since given them up in favor of buying the original Japanese. In regards to the sic mark, is there a similiar marking for "translation incorrect" that we should employ? Honestly, it seems silly to continually refer to a flawed text like this as the authoritative version. If you need me to break out in-depth analysis of the original Japanese as compared to the Viz versions I will, but it's pretty commonly accepted that they go for their own "style" versus accuracy. While it's true that those outside the fandom might see these edits as minor, there are hundreds (quite possibly thousands) inside the fandom that disagree. And some of the jutsu translations are nowhere close to the original; a prime example would be "Art of the Valentine" for Mind Swap Technique. This is an article on Kishimoto Masashi's Naruto after all - when Viz strays from that I see no reason to follow them. Parenthetical nods to their translation where appropriate would seem to be enough. Kakumei 20:15, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

WhisperToMe: who hired you to be Wikipedia's Editor? seriously, this is a FREE encyclopedia isn't it? you don't have a right more than i do what goes into the Naruto section. i dont care if Viz is hired for the english translation, personally i'm not even American so it doesn't affect me. if i want to edit the CORRECT true to the japanese text translation, who are you to tell me no? this is a japanese manga enjoyed by ppl worldwide not only in America. this is not an american manga and don't try to americanize it using Viz erroneous translation who try to appeal to 12 year old american boys. we are all Naruto fans and we didn't put you in charge as our boss. From M. 08:06, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hired myself :) - And this is an encyclopedia, and we should be descriptive, not proscriptive. Naruto's been licensed by ShoPro, which will merge with Viz, so ya may as well love these conventions. WhisperToMe 18:19, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Isn't blind reversion of more accurate translations proscriptive? And as an encyclopedia, we should strive to be comprehensive and precise. That necessitates inclusion of the Viz version, but doesn't demand we make it the standard. Kakumei 20:15, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So, how should we deal with the fact that some people on the internet dislike the translation? I would put the Viz versions ahead of any fan translation if a Viz translation exists. Besides, for one to see if it is actually "inaccurate", one has to get a native Japanese speaker who knows English to see if there are any accidental errors in translation. Also remember that some text may be twisted on purpose.

Besides, Viz is owned by Shueisha and Shogakukan, two Japanese companies. It is THE official translation, and you cannot do a thing about it.

We shall not be judges. We shall post and add "sic" when needed. And we are using the Viz version because this is the English Wikipedia.

Now, if you feel that the translations are bad in some quotes, maybe we should include fan translations with the Viz translations, but we shall not remove Viz translations. - Also, Kakumei, you have made less than 11 edits. Did you join just to press on this issue? - WhisperToMe 05:04, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"we"? who is "we"? you're the only one with that opinion. even Americans are not happy with Viz translation. i think Viz should be the translation in the brackets and the more accurate translation after the romaji name (in case of a jutsu), because this is a japanese manga, and you have to deal with it. you're acting like you own the place, knock it off. sometimes you just can't follow the official translation, and you can ask Viz how many complaints letters they've received about Naruto. please try to be more considerate of more fan opinions around you even if you disagree. from M. 10:02, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And as for this being the English Wikipedia, flash news: they don't only speak English in America. from M. 10:06, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yea - The US isn't the only English-speaking country, but it is the only country with an English-language edition of Naruto - people in other countries import Naruto manga from the USA.

That, and guests and newly established accounts are usually forbidden from voting on issues.

WhisperToMe 22:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There hasn't been any voting on this issue as far as I could see. And so far I have only seen one person for using Viz's names. So if there had been a vote where there was one longtime member vs. a couple of new/unregistered wikipedians the result wouldn't have meant anything really.

My personal oppinion is that I would prefer the use of romanized Japanese names since I don't like the quality of Viz's works (the name Evil Eye is horrible in my oppinion). The problem is that in most cases here on Wikipedia we use the translated name if there is any such. And in most of those cases the translated name is the most commonly used name among speakers of the langauge the wikipedia is in. Like sv:Musse Pigg and fi:Aku Ankka.

Now the problem in this case is that a google search reveales that many of the Viz-names aren't used much on the Internet. Fans prefer to use the names that are in the fan translations which are generally romanized Japanese. In the case of Battle Angel Alita vs GUNNM both are quite often used so there Alita should be used as main name.

I personally lean towards using the names in the fan translations as main names since they are more commonly used but I haven't for the moment a strong oppinion in this issue. Jeltz talk 07:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jeltz, you are not taking account into the fact that Naruto is going to be on American TV in this summer. This will certainly boost popularity for the English names.

Also, I am using both "Japanese" and "English" names here since Viz recently started to express both Japanese and English names for attacks. The issue here isn't the naming but it is what translations should the quotes be from. WhisperToMe 05:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• When that happens i will wholly agree with you even if I dislike the Viz names. Currently I'm slightly in favour of using the transliterated Japanese names that is used in the fan translations. They are the currently used names (but this might as you said change in the future with an English translation of the anime). Jeltz talk 16:51, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now, what I would really like is if someone got the Japanese text and placed it in Wikipedia. Then I could use a fan translation for THAT, and include it with the official English version in bookstores. WhisperToMe 23:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ask and ye shall receive. Kanji are taken from the tankōbon I've got on my bookshelf, I included the romaji and more literal translation as well. I didn't give a word-by-word breakdown to explain the translation, but I can certainly supply it if necessary. - Kakumei 03:02, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Kakumei. I would love that. :) WhisperToMe 03:09, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Cartoon Network, ShoPro, and Viz announced the license and the future airing, so I know that it will happen. WhisperToMe 22:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suggest reading Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_for_Japan-related_articles/tessaiga where WhisperToMe posted a great deal. They ended up having to take a vote (the result was to use the correct name, not the Viz name).

And he had a much stronger case there because the standard says to use the "most commonly used English form" and the Viz version for Tessaiga is more common. There's no question that for the Naruto names, the Viz versions are *not* the most common ones. Ken Arromdee 20:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Kabuto 19 or 20?

It is true that Kabuto failed the Chuunin test 7 times, but I was under the impression that that test happens twice a year, not once--which ought to place him at about 16 or 17 so. Is there some actual outside source that reports his manga-starting age as 19?

Vandalism warning

Someone with the IP 205.188.116.7 has been vandalizing other pages. I didn't want to revert their edit here, because I know nothing about this series, but someone should check the accuracy of this edit. --Tydaj 05:45, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I have checked and it wasn't vandalism. I have still removed it because I don't think Sasuke's family name has to be written every time. This seems to me like an edit done in good faith, but thanks for the warning. Jeltz talk 15:47, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Ages

I'm just making a quick note. In the manga, 3 years have past. From the beginning of the manga, to the point where Sakura starts to train with Tsunade, and Naruto leaves to go train with Jiraiya. Sakura notes this. Then, they train for two (and a half...ish) years. Thus being three years. Now, I note this because I was looking at some of the characters' ages, and you commented that at the beginning of the manga, they're 2 years younger, when technically, they should be three. Thought this might be a little helpful.

Ehm...you mean to say that Naruto was 12 in the beginning of the manga and 15 at the present, right? Because that's correct. The people who've put "X at the start of the manga, now X" on the page probably mistook the Databook 2 age for the Databook 1 age.

Now that we are talking about ages. Is it really nessecary to put 2 ages there? I think we should put the latest known age only, to avoid confusion and mistakes. What if we put Kurenai's age as "27 at start of manga, now 30", only to find out later she died during the timeskip at age 29.

LinkFix Dump

See also: User:Ambush Commander/LinkFix dump

These links need to be fixed.

LinkFix dump for "Naruto characters", no edits made:

Cockroach % Blattodea
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Flower arrangement % Ikebana
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Import ! Disambiguation Page
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Rectangular % Rectangle
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Centimeter % Metre
Gills % Gill
Naruto advanced bloodlines % Naruto kekkei genkai
Naruto advanced bloodlines % Naruto kekkei genkai
Senses % Sense
Death penalty % Capital punishment
Bravery ! Disambiguation Page
Mythical % Mythology
Izumo province % Izumo Province
Old provinces of Japan % Provinces of Japan
Lapis Lazuli % Lapis lazuli
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
String ! Disambiguation Page
Needle ! Disambiguation Page
Tsunamis % Tsunami
Demons % Demon
Naruto ! Disambiguation Page
Teeth % Tooth
Hug % Physical intimacy
Snakes % Snake
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Sadism % Sadism and masochism
Akatsuki (fiction) ! Disambiguation Page
Aconite ! Disambiguation Page
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Devils % Devil
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Cm % CM
Kg % KG
Needle ! Disambiguation Page
Temari ! Disambiguation Page
Cm % CM
Seaquake % Earthquake
Naruto advanced bloodlines % Naruto kekkei genkai
Akatsuki (fiction) ! Disambiguation Page
Akatsuki (fiction) ! Disambiguation Page
Naruto advanced bloodlines % Naruto kekkei genkai
Nineteenth century % 19th century

Okay, get at it. There's a lot of repetition in this article. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 15:34, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

It appears that some of the links have been fixed. I'll redump this article once the bot is done with Swastika. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 22:17, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Here's the redump:

LinkFix dump for "Naruto characters", no edits made:

Courage ! Disambiguation Page
Lapis Lazuli % Lapis lazuli
String ! Disambiguation Page
Needle ! Disambiguation Page
Akatsuki (fiction) ! Disambiguation Page
Needle ! Disambiguation Page
Panda ! Disambiguation Page
Panda ! Disambiguation Page
Akatsuki (fiction) ! Disambiguation Page
Akatsuki (fiction) ! Disambiguation Page

— Ambush Commander^(Talk) 23:09, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

about Akatsuki members

is it really necessary to have entries for them both here and in Akatsuki (Naruto)? One or the other (probably the one on this page) should be removed... 141.156.194.175 01:19, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Tocleft

I removed it: in my opinion, it looks very bad. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 02:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Haku's Name

In the trivia for Haku, it says that some believe Haku's family name is Shiro, because he was called "Shiro" in some translation. But he was called that just because 「白」, "white" in Japanese, can be read as "Shiro" (as well as "Haku"), not because it's his family name.

Position: Left Little Finger?

I haven't read the Naruto manga, but I've watched all of the anime. Something that I noticed on Orochimaru's section here is that a "position" is listed for him, as "left little finger." What the heck does that mean? And how come no other characters have them? --mdd4696 20:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a remnant of his former membership in Akatsuki, and Orochimaru makes a very brief mention of it in the anime, although I'm not sure in which episode. Edit: in episode 81, when he's talking about his leaving Akatsuki because of Itachi.--Pentasyllabic 22:48, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Main, secondary characters, villains

Are these sections really necessary? In my opinion, they don't give any new information, and just take up space.--JadziaLover 11:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

IMO it's either "move the 'Main Characters', etc. (or links to their pages) to the top and take them out of the 'Other Characters' list", or remove the 'Main Characters' completely.--Pentasyllabic 11:34, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I redid those sections to list the main and supporting characters, and deleted their entries from the 'Other Characters' list for those that had no affiliation. I also trimmed the list of secondary characters for several reasons. The result doesn't look great, but I think it's easier to navigate now. --Pentasyllabic 01:17, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

New pictures

User:ShaunHimself has added a lot of character pictures recently, but unfortunately none of them seem to have licensing info and will probably get deleted... how would one go about correcting this? --Pentasyllabic 04:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Unknown Rank

There are some charcters with an unstated rank, but in some cases it is fairly obvious. Ergo, i added another note on the bottom: "based on status and ability". In addition, I made an edit to Chiyo stating that she is probably a Jonin for the latter reason. Feel free to object as you see fit. --123fakestreet

Actually, I doubt Chiyo has any rank. She was already retired and the Konoha council member s also don't carry ranks. However, it's a good idea for people like Sakumo, although they already have something like

Unknown, probably: rank

in their rank-entry ^^ --JadziaLover 22:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

This really comes down to a question of whether or not one can lose their rank with old age. With regards to Chiyo's Jonin status, I think that it can still apply to her much in the same way the title of General would to a retired General, ableit Retired is usually included in the rank of such a person.

The Databooks don't give ranks to people who have retired, missing-nins, and the like. So it's safe to assume ninja lose their rank when they retire.--JadziaLover 00:08, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Didn't the manga designate Zabuza as a Jonin? --123fakestreet

WRT the databook info, it might be because missing-nins are no longer recognized by their former village and thus lose their official rank (although some, like Zabuza, might still refer to themselves by former rank). Just my two cents. --Pentasyllabic 05:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, Zabuza, Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Homura, Koharu...all don't have ranks anymore, according to the databooks. Some because they are missing nins, others because they simply stopped being a ninja. In the case of Chiyo, I'm fairly certain she's stopped being a ninja. Ergo, she doesn't have a rank anymore.--JadziaLover 12:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I looked into it a bit and I think you're right. Sorry. Perhaps putting in "probably S Class" based on status, ability, or bingo book would be a better idea. I can tell you know a good deal more about Naruto then I do, so you should probably have teh final decision. --123fakestreet

Images without copyright status

While categorizing Naruto images, I noticed some (like Image:Yuura.jpg) don't have copyright nor source information. I would suggest that someone who really knows the anime and manga checks them all, and add the corresponding tag when needed. Images without status are usually deleted as soon as tagged {{nosource}}. I tagged two but decided to revert the changes and let a message in the uploader's Talk Page. -- ReyBrujo 04:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Changed re-direct from "Shino"

Hi. I just wrote an article about the pottery glaze known as "Shino." I saw that there was an existing re-direct from Shino to this page. I wasn't sure how best to handle this (I'm fairly new to Wikipedia), but I replaced that re-direct with the article. Maybe a disambiguation page would be better, but I don't know exactly how to create those. --Paul Stokstad

Dividing this page

this page is to big and unwieldy it has to be divided up some more, first I thank Aburame Shino, Tenten and the Third Hokage should get there own pages, second some of the minor characters could be put on a village/clan page like the one for the Oto-nins --Croatnik December,17,2005

Okay, I created a seperate Aburame Shino and Sandaime Hokage page. They are rough drafts and need editing to correct any minor mistakes. All the information from the main character page has been added. Edit: I made the Tenten page.--VegitaU December 17, 2005; 18:13

Proposing move to List of Naruto Characters and appropriate re-formatting

Because with all the page splitting this is what it's become, and I think keeping the incredibly cumbersome current format of headlines and "see main article" just because we have yet to create a page to store the information about the Aburame Clan, Konohamaru and Tonton is silly. --AceMyth 11:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Yondaime Naruto's father?

Sorry I'm new at wikipedia please forgive if I wrote this in the wrong place. About Yondaime's true name being Uzumaki Anshi, I found no proof of this anywhere. And on episode 82 of the anime, itachi says the words "yondaime hokage" not anshi. Cannot find any mention of the name Anshi anywhere on manga or anime and this leads me to believe Yondaime's real name is unknown and whether he is naruto's father.

You are quite correct ^^ The Yondaime's name is, as of yet, unknown. The true link between Naruto and the Yondaime is also still hidden from us. This goes for both the Japanese and English series--JadziaLover 13:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the speculation about Yondaime's name comes from people looking at Jiraiya's summoning scroll. 216.108.4.74 22:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"Baki Is ugly and fat and stupid and GAY"

Can you put up some more useful information on him? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.181.218.169 (talk • contribs)

when you going to finish the character list?

It seems that it is messed up abit and is missing a few people, what is Temari doing in the Orochimaru Gang? 3:30 pm 4/18/2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.66.200.83 (talk • contribs)

Kaguya Katemaro?

Is this an actual character or is the name and techniques (esp Katsekan no Mai) purely speculation? 216.108.4.74 22:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just for clarification

An IP address is changing the description of the character Yashamaru (see diff). I just wanted to make sure that these changes, altering the gender of the character, are incorrect. I did a quick google search and it confirmed that Yashamaru was a man, but wanted to make sure from people more familiar with the series. Cowman109^Talk 21:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that he is Gaara's uncle. Especially with that name. I'm pretty sure that Yashamaru is a boys name. I remember first thinking that he was Gaara's aunt but then learning that I was wrong. Jeltz talk 22:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't accidentally reverting correct information. Cowman109^Talk 00:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Kaze no Kuni?

I noticed that most of the characters in this article that aren't just links to other pages are members of the Hidden Sand. Would an article on Kaze no Kuni be practical, seeing as there are enough known members (specifically more than there are for Nami no Kuni, which has its own article), or would that be unnecessary? I asked this question on the Naruto Geography page a couple of weeks ago, but nobody has replied yet… Snapper2 01:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Fourth Kazekage

"So, joining with Otogakure, the Kazekage planned to attack Konohagakure" -- I was under the assumption that the whole attack was planned and executed by Orochimaru in disguise as the Kazekage. The betrayal of Konohagakure was originally met negatively among Temari, Baki, and villagers, but followed because they were the (fake) Kazekage's orders. The apologetic surrender message of Sunagakure and initial reactions to finding Kazekage's body seems to imply that the Fourth Kazekage didn't agree to a war, and that they had been fooled by Orochimaru. 128.195.111.214 01:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Characters ages

I'm not sure where to post this, as it is a recurrent issue on all the individual character pages. The pre time-skip ages of all the characters are known from the data books. However, in the character pages, the post time-skip ages are listed. I think this presents a problem, in that the time-skip is not a round number of years, but "approximately" two and a half years, so the age number might change by just 2 years for some charaters post-timeskip, and by 3 years for others, depending on their birtdate and the date at which Naruto I ends. (Unless someone can cite a source on the post time-skip ages, in which case I'll gladly stand corrected.)

Why are the ages shown post time-skip, and not the canonical original age? I suggest we revert to pre time-skip age, or at the very least, list both figures. --Byakuren 01:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I brought up the subject of ages here, and the only person who felt like responding thought giving only part II ages would be more useful than giving both. Feel free to chime in with your own opinions. --Snapper2 20:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks! --Byakuren 01:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I tried to follow the link but I couldn't find it. Personally, I would prefer having both ages... requires less thinking on my part... =) Eellee 21:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Metric to US Standard height and weight conversions

If possible, could someone convert the height and weight of the the characters to US standard but not getting rid of the Metric units of the measurements as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.174.157.9 (talk • contribs)

Not going to happen. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 01:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Ninja Academy Students

Can someone start a page for the Ninja Academy students. Kid Sonic

We don't know any of them. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Somebody is being annoying

I found this on Characters.

Main characters

   * Naruto Uzumaki
   * Sasuke Uchiha
   * Sakura Haruno
   * Kakashi Hatake
   * Put a Niger in the show u Slut Ass Hors

[edit] Secondary characters

   * Team 10: Asuma Sarutobi, Shikamaru Nara, Sluttly Ino , and Fatass idiot Choji Akimichi
   * Team 8: bicth Kurenai Yuhi, Hinata Hyuga, Kiba Inuzuka, and Shino Aburame
   * Team Guy: homo Guy, Neji Hyugay, gangbang Lee, and Tenten
   * Team Baki: Baki, sriping Gaara, fuck up Kankuro, and Temari
   * Other: Jiraiya, Third Hokage, Tsunade, Yamato and Sai

Alex 'phoenix' Wing 19:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Filler characters.

I've taken notice that all filler characters have the complete data deck (age, rank, height, weight, birthday, blood type, unique traits, & seiyu), but really few were giving any actual information on more than 2-3 of these aspects, namely: unique traits, seiyu, and, on some rare occations, age (although then it was only a notice of demise). So I'd like to ask if it would be okay to change the data characteristics deck for filler-only characters to: status, unique traits, & seiyuu, partly out of space saving issues, partly because it would make the articles look slightly more organized... Well, what do you think? 81.224.28.244 01:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yugito does not have a family name...

She says in the Japanese text "Kumogakure no nii Yugito no na ni kakete... korosu!!" The kanji used for "nii" (二位) mean "second place" so I'm pretty sure she is saying that she is Cloud Village's second strongest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kangarugh22 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

????

My page was here. Did you delete it? user:Deadlocks Deadlocks 18:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

What page? You can check the logs - type in the page name in "Title". --Pentasyllabic 18:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Team Snake

Why hasn't Team Snake been included in the secondary characters list. since they are officially a team, i think the team should be included in the secondary character list. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.131.196.9 (talk) 22:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Fuujin and Raijin

These two brothers are not listed in the character credits. Tsunade knows of them and they know of her. (with respect if I recall correectly) They are found around the early episodes of 140's. Their relationship was left open, maybe a future return is to come from this? I think they're both worth listing. Prequarius 03:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Should Part 2 pictures be used as the character profile pictures?

Dont you think that part 2 pictures should be used instead of Part 1? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nicoler1 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Some characters don't deserve articles yet

Some of them do not need articles yet because they haven't done very much. They are:

Tenten (duh) Shino Hinata Kurenai

I'd leave Shino and Hinata for now, but Tenten.... well, she's pretty much one of the more useless of the recurring characters and doesn't leave a single mark on the series. Kurenai's role can be summed up in three sentences:

Kurenai was assigned Team Leader of Team 8, and watched them over during the Chunin Exam. When Itachi came to Konoha to get Naruto, she had a quick battle against him, but was largely overpowered. Recently, she has been saddened over Asuma's death and is revealed to have his baby. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:18 (Eastern Standard Time), 19 May, 2007

Hyuga Hiashi a villager?

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I was wondering why Hinata's father is listed under "Villagers" in "Land of Fire" instead of "List of Konoha ninja". I would expect that Hiashi, as the head of the Hyuga clan, would be a jonin or something. Is it because he doesn't seem to use the head protector? There are various other characters who are ninja but not wear their village head protectors, such as pre-Hokage Tsunade, Jiraiya, and I don't think Shizune wears one, either. Eellee 23:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It's because he is never given a rank in the databooks. List of Konoha ninja is for characters with ranks. ~SnapperTo 23:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It was either that or an "unranked ninja" section, which just made the article look awkward. You Can't See Me! 05:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for clarifying. Eellee 21:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"Plot Overview"

Instead of having a plot overview section for each character, why don't we just have a "Current Arc" section for each character to describe they're current actions. For example, Sasuke's article would explain the Team Snake thing, while Itachi's would describe how he's being chased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk • contribs)

Some of these characters actually do something prior to the "current arc", and not mentioning what they do in some instances would seem odd. ~SnapperTo 17:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Well, we know what alot of those characters are doing. (Shikamaru taking care of Kurenai), and the other ones, like Neji and Lee, we could say something along the lines of (Whereabouts unknown), and for some we can easily assume what they're doing. (We can assume Neji, Lee, and Guy are on missions, which is probably correct). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk • contribs)

That would wander into the territory of speculation. ~SnapperTo 20:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

blood type?

how the hell do we know what bood type they are?

Databook?Jacce 16:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Undeserving of Articles

Why do some of the characters, like Tenten and Shino, have articles? They have done basically nothing besides a few minor fights that generally don't matter very much, and the filler arcs. Although I'd keep Shino's for now in case he does more in this arc, we should just get rid of Tenten's immediately, because hse does absolutely nothing, EVER. Kurenai and Hinata also have very small roles and their articles are in reality a small page they haven't earned yet. We should also try to expand upon the other articles (Neji and Lee, for example) so it reflects upon their actual role.203.81.209.133 09:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

When was it discussed to merge the Ino, Tenten, and Shino pages?

I'm curious because I don't remember seeing any discussion to have those pages merged into the long Naruto Characters list thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheUltimate3 (talk • contribs)

I agree. I also don´t see the reason to merge them. It only destroys the character order we had (all characters of the main teams: own page). Even if Tenten has no BIG role, she is a member of one of the main teams and thus deserves her own article. The same goes for Shino and he isn´t even that bad as TenTen and has a role in the newest chapter. And even if you merge those two....why Ino? She isn´t insignificant at all. I mean...we even have own pages for Haku and Zabuza. ~ Felcis 14:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

And I left Snapper2 a message about that. I never did understand. As the Tenten articles final message (sort of) it was for the the Tenten Defense of small articles. Which brings the question to me, when ever a page is long, it is cut short. But when its cut short its deleted/merged because its to small. Regardless, I left Snapper2 a message I hope this gets somewhere where everyone can get what they desire.~ User:TheUltimate3 10:47AM 24 June 2007

Can you come up with a reason to let them have articles other than the fact that their teammates have articles? Because I really can't see a good reason to let Tenten have an article while 20+ other characters who actually contribute to the series don't. ~SnapperTo 19:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

/clearsthroat Alright here's what I got. Tenten does contribute. She does her part. She is not the focus of the creators love apparently, but she does her part. And she however HAS done enough to warrent her own article. There ya go. She does contribute enough for her own article. There ya go. Thats a good reason. ~ TheUltimate3:23PM 24, June 2007 Eastern US Time.

Well then, let's give every character their own article, because every character does the things that they were created to do. Yep, I've been so blind; Moegi should have gotten an article ages ago. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get to work on making an article for Sasori minion #2. ~SnapperTo 19:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Damit, I hate editing conficts. This is the third time in the past 10 minutes.

All she does is fight Temari (so minor it's not shown in the manga) and be a member of Team Guy (and she rarely does anything besides be a member). Hinata only gets two moments in the spotlight that doesn't involve being a member of Team 8 (the current arc doesn't count yet) and Shino only has two battles that are one-chapter long. Kurenai only fights Itachi (very shortly) and have Asuma's baby. Ino still should have an article, and Shino and Hinata should uphold their's until the current arc is over, but Kurenai and Tenten still shouldn't have an article.

And I agree with Snapper2, many other characters have done just as much if not more than Tenten yet they don't have articles. Chiyo, Yondaime, Nine-Tails, Izumo and Kotetsu, Gamabunta, and Deidara being the most notable. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 3:36 (Eastern Standard Time), June 24, 2007.

You really don't have to be an ass about it.(Directed at Snapper2) /sigh Alright let me try again: She is a notable recurring character. As in, she appears, she does her part which is actually important to more characters than just her own, and she leaves to reappear later. People like Konahamaru appear, leave, and reappear but they usually involve just one character. Now lets try to keep this as civil as possible. EDIT: Wait, Kurenai lost her article? ~ TheUltimate3 3:39PM 24, June 2007 Eastern U.S. Time.

And what part is that? I honestly can't think of a single thing she has done that has helped the story. ~SnapperTo 19:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I can agree in Tentens (and maybe even in Kurenais) case but not with Ino and Shino. Ino is important enough for the story (and for other characters, like Sakura and Team 10) and Shino should keep his own article for the time being, as he could get some more attention this arc. ~ Felcis 22:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Ino has yet to even defeat someone in battle. She has had plenty of chances to contribute to the series yet has failed to do so. As for Shino, he received the same amount of complaints as Tenten. If he does something new and useful in this arc he can come back. ~SnapperTo 22:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is a lack of battle-prowess a lack of importance? Is she less important just because she is a girl? Ino has a bigger importance to the series as a whole than Hidan or the Third Hokage. Okay, they were both important some times, but Ino was almost constantly semi-important. At least Ino has no lack of importance, even though she is useless in battle. ~ Felcis 23:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The Third Hokage and Hidan contribute to the long-running storyline. Ino does not. That she does not take part in battles is a big part of this, as the plot is really only furthered during battles. That she is a girl is mere coincidence, if you will; the kunoichi see far less attention from Kishimoto than most male characters. And Ino does have a lack of importance; the only thing worthy of merit is that she is Sakura's childhood friend. Everything else she has done is forgettable or could have easily been done by someone else. I am not advocating that Hidan or the the Third keep their articles as well, I am merely saying they outmatch Ino in usefulness. ~SnapperTo 23:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, who's more notable: Izumo/Kotetsu or Tenten? Yondaime or tenten? Chiyo or Tenten? Nine-Tails or Tenten? Correct, the answer besides Tenten. As said, all she does is fight Temari (not seen in manga) and be a member of Team Guy (being the team's least important member). Izumo and Kotetsu's teamwork with Asuma nad Shikamaru against Kakuuzu and Hidan outdoes that completely. Chiyo's fight with Sasori outdoes that by far. At least 10 other characters outdo Tenten and don't have articles, so why should hse have one. Besides your so called "importance", you have no reason. And she's not important to other character, Team Guy would have lived without her, Temari still would have one her prelim fight, and Kisame still would have had his butt kicked by Guy. She does absolutely nothing. Even Konohamaru does more than she does. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

I love getting jumped. Just like school. Fine. I admit defeat. For those that cared about those articles, my apologizes and I tried. To those who don't well....yeah. Good work and I hope the articles that "deserve" articles get there own soon. Chiyo did have an article if memory serves me correctly but I could be mistaken. TheUltimate3

No need to make yourself out to be the victim; you asked for my reasoning and you got it. Besides, I've rewritten all four articles twice, so I do have some amount of attachment to their former selves. And if you want to save something, User:Sesshomaru just tagged a bunch of images for not having a rationale, meaning they'll get deleted in a week. So, there's your chance to make a difference. ~SnapperTo 20:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Merely attempting some comedy. I'm no victim at school, people fear me. (haha) I'll get to that image thing then. The least I could do.EDIT: Any idea one how I'm going to find exactly WHERE all those images came from? TheUltimate3

Many of them seem to have the episode number given, so that should be enough; I wouldn't worry too much about what time interval they appear at. For those that don't have an episode number, simply saying they're from the Naruto anime should suffice for the time being, unless you have an idea of where they're from and can guess/watch the episode to confirm. ~SnapperTo 20:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Oh there's more. Nevermind then. TheUltimate3

Now that they don't have articles anymore, do we still need to have them shown on the Naruto Character Box? It's supposed to be limited to articled-characters only. Also, while we're on the discussion of characters who do need articles, I would like to, once again, ask if Chiyo can have her article again. I made a sceleton for her article here, please look and see if it is large enough for an article. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Chiyo is a dead single arc character. Any article she received would never get longer. Her entry on Land of Wind is enough. ~SnapperTo 22:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

All I have to say at all is Haku and Zabuza. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Two wrongs does not make a right. Chiyo is not going to get a second chance at having an article just to bring balance to the force. ~SnapperTo 23:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

That's okay with me. I could live without her getting an article. You still never answered the other questions, though. Should Hinata's article be remvoed and should we remove the names of the ones without articles anymore from the character box template? User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Some characters are inherently more difficult to merge, either due to having more information that needs to/should be transfered, being more involved in the story, or seeing greater than average levels of development. Hinata applies to the latter point. While her contributions are on the same level as Ino, her evolving personality takes a good deal of room to adequately address. Although this wouldn't be difficult if she were given a longer entry on a list of characters, List of Konoha ninja already has a problem with article size. Until we can figure out how to address this problem or find a workaround, Hinata is in limbo for me. As for the template, they will be removed eventually, though its current structure would look odd without the four. Do as you wish on the matter. ~SnapperTo 23:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Hinata should definitly stay, as she has a bigger connection with and influence on the main character and one of the more important secondary characters (Neji). Her own character development (or "growth) is also a bigger theme of the series. If we remove her we could as well remove Choji and then we start removing more important characters. I would also suggest to keep the characters without own page in the template to preserve the 3-Person+Leader-Team order. ~ Felcis 23:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

A bit too late on saying that. What I did was the best tat could be done for now, unless we either remove another character this is the best that can be done. I also suggest we instead move the Memebers of the Konoha 11 without articles to the Rookie Nine article to add on to the Rookie Nine Article and shorten the Konoha article. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Except Tenten you mean. She is not of the Rookie 9, so she can stay here. But the idea is good, that would make the Rookie 9 Page more important. ~ Felcis 00:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the smartest person in the bunch so let me try to recap on what oy said AFKAW...You want to move the Rookie Nine Characters to the Rookie Nine page, so make it easier on the List of Konoha Ninja, as well as give that article a little more play time? I like it. ~ TheUltimate3

That would work, and it would allow for longer entries for each character. ~SnapperTo 02:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to move the lesser characters to the Konoha 12/Rookie 9 page, shouldn't Kiba, Hinata, Sai, and Choji be added? It seems silly just to do all this for three characters. You can make an excellent case that Ino is as relevant(or irrelevant) as those characters I mentioned. So if she goes, so should the others. JaceBX 06:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Practically all the Rookie Nine characters could be moved there. Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Neji, Shikamaru, and perhaps Lee are the only ones that should retain articles. As for the rest, Temari and Kankuro could be merged into Land of Wind, and Gaara should definitely retain his own article. As for the remainder, their fate is uncertain. The additional space in the List of Konoha ninja article could facilitate Sai, Yamato, and the Third being included. The minor Akatsuki characters with articles irk me, but there's really no place to put them at the moment. We could segregate the Akatsuki (Naruto) article into the organization and its members, but that's going too far in my opinion. I'm open to suggestions in any case. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 07:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Come on, don´t overdo it. Naruto is quite a big series and it´s okay für the secondary characters to have their own page. Kiba, Choji, Hinata, Temrai and Kankuro are okay with their own pages, Ino and Shino can be added to the Rookie Nine and Tenten can stay with the Konoha Ninja for all I care. Why should we reduce the articles so drastically? As long as it doesn´t get as excessive as Bleach it should be okay with the guidelines and still contain formidable informations. ~ Felcis 08:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The ones that have enough info to keep their articles should (like Hinata, Choji, Kankuro and Tamrai) and the Akatsuki members (with the exception of the ones who got their own articles for one reason or another) should stay on the Akatsuki page. If anything we could make the Rookie Nine page into the Konoha 12 and move the members of Konaha 12 to that page where their info could be expanded, and have links to the ones that have articles. TheUltimate3 09:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The following characters definetly should get articles for the following reasons:

The original Tema 7 : They're the main characters

Shikamaru Nara: Most important of Rookei Nine besides Naruto and Sasuke, major recurring character.

Lee and Neji: Major recurring characters, large personality and histories.

Gaara: Major recurring character, had a tailed beast, most important Sand ninja.

Orochimaru: Main villian for five arcs and also made a major appearance in a sixth.

Jiraiya: Major recurring character, large history and personality, taught Naruto for 3 years.

Kabuto: Normally i'd say he gets no article, but now that he has Orochiamru in him his role increased dramatically. Let's see how he develops for now.

Itachi: History, abilities, Akatsuki, most well-known member of Akatsuki. He's also bound to do much more important stuff very soon.

The follwoing have some debating:

Choji: Constantly recurring, important role in Shikamaru's life, Sasuke Retrieval arc. Keep

Kiba: Constantly recurring, his history with Akamaru, Sasuke arc. Keep

Hinata: I'm actually against her article, but she constantly develops. That's about it. Keep

Kankuro and Temari: Half of their role is simply being with Gaara, but the other hlaf is almost always important. Keep

Tsunade: Search for tsunade arc, large personality, constantly recurring. Keep

Guy: Lee's role model, constantly recurring. Keep

Third Hokage: I don't see any reason for his article to exist anymore.

Zabuza and Haku: They played an important role in the beginning, but they've been dead for 300 chapters. I say it's time for them to pass on. --Suggested for merge. Discuss

Sai: Member of Team 7, that's about it. --Suggested for merge. Discuss

Yamoto: Leader of Team 7, and he does more than Sai. Keep

Hidan and Kakuzu: It seems they will altogehter be the most unimportant members of Akatsuki for the series, but I'm not really sure how you would reduce the size of their articles into the Akatsuki page.

Sasori: Major history, Gaara arc, large abilities.

Asuma: Role in Shikamaru's life, his death.

Deidara: Most of you will probsbly go "He doesn't have an article", but Deidara has now shown enough for an article, including a small history, several large battles, and some personality. --Suggested for Article. Discuss

Well, the debating will be up to you guys, because only the ones at the top truly deserve articles. The bottom half will need some debating. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

As I said before, I would suggest to keep all characters you lsited, except Haku, Zabuza, Hidan, Kakuzu and Sasori. Haku and Zaubuza were the first important enemys in the series, but on the other hand they were only important for the first season. After that they got killed and are dead. The 3 Akatsuki-Guys were the main villains for one arc, but they all died in the same arc they appeared. The only thing really notable about them are their abilities. If it´s for me to decide I would keep them all, except Haku and Zabuza plus adding Ino and Shino instead, but if we really want to reduce the articles according to some criterias, the "minor" Akatsuki-guys should go. The Third Hokage CAN stay, because he is an important character in the first few arcs and in the history of some important characters. ~ Felcis 20:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

So damn long...anyway: The Akatsuki members save Sasori should be put back into the Akatsuki article. Kankuro and Temari are important so they warrent there own articles. There's no denying (i would have guessed) that Hinata growth deserved her article. The Third was important until his death and I think his importance is linked with the Sannin. Yamato does indeed do alot, and same with Guy (Hell we went through an episode that was a Guy/Lee flashback.) Choji since he is important to Shikamaru (I think part of the reason Shikimaru is in the state he is now was because Choji almost died on his watch. Plus his ordeals in the Sauske arc) and Kiba because of his long and complex history and explaination with Akamaru which itself is extensive. Oh and Asuma, his connection with wind based Chakra which helped Naruto produce the Futon:Rasengan, his relationship with his team and his death which propelled the death of 1 Akatsuki member (as far as I can remeber) means his influenced alot. TheUltimate3 20:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say Kankuro, Temari, and Tsunade are no brainers for keeping their articles. Gai and Asuma have also played enough of a role to warrant their own pages. I am on the fence about Hinata, Kiba, Sai, and Choji since I see them on the same level as Ino. If they get to keep their articles then there is no reason Ino should not get her's back. Tenten and Shino are the obvious ones who don't need a page. The Third, Haku, Zabuza, Sasori, Kakuzu and Hidan could all be merged somewhere else. JaceBX 08:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Both Kiba nad Choji play a very important role in the Sasuke Retrieval arc, so much they completely outrank Ino's two moments in the spotlight (the Sound ninja fight and fight with Sakura) in just that arc alone. Hinata only had two things done herself, fight Neji and cough up blood at the arena. Hinata and Ino are actually on the same level as Shino and Tenten in terms of doing stuff in the main series, and in truth the only reason any of the Rookie Nine besides Team 7, Shikamaru and Choji, and Kiba had articles is because they simply were from the Rookie Nine. Kurenai lost her article because the only reason she had one was being Team 8's leader. Tenten..... enough said. Sai only actually did anything in the Sai and Sasuke arc, while after that he is just simply there. Yamoto also plays a big role in that arc and is a major help with teaching Naruto to create an S-Rank technique, and he's the current leader of Team 7, which together outranks Sai.

(Continued) Asuma is dead and the only thing he really did was fight Kisame (very shortly) and have Hidan kill him that actualy matter. Don't count being Kurenai's lover, personality and relationships do not make an article. And the baby hasn't been born yet, so why mention it? And as for his relationship with Shikamaru, just about all the ninja in the series have notable relationships with people, praise them for walking while your at it. Guy only almost fought Kisame and Itachi and fought Kisame, and is also Lee's role model (if we gave him an article for that Yondaime would have one too, you know). Kankuro and Temari are really confusing, half of their role is just being with Gaara. Tsunade hasn't done very much lately, besides go "blah blah blah mission". User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

As said before, battles aren´t the only thing that makes a character notable. Hinata is definitly as important as Choji or Kiba, even though she has fought neither often nor well. Concerning Tsunade...she is the freaking leader of the village! That alone would make her notable and her big role for one arc as well. ~ Felcis 21:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You could be the leader of EVERY village and that would only barely count at all for the character's article. I'm not only including battles, but generally Hinata has done as much as Shino has except in a more notable way, while Choji and Kiba have done alot more than Shino has. Basically, both Shino and Hinata have done only two things, while Choji and Kiba have done more than that, and what they did had more important an outcome for the series than the two thing Shino and Hinata have done. But has Tsunade done anything relatively important after that arc? No, she hasn't. That is the problem with giving her an article or not, it's because she hasn't done anything lately (just like Sai). User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Tsunade's article (considering how much she had done, her extensive backstory, and her unique ability which could be considered important) should stay. Hinata had more importance if you take into account of one of those filler arcs, and her nack of getting Naruto's courage up when it is low, which was again also seen in the Filler arc. TheUltimate3 22:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Fillers don't count at all, a character could appear in all the filler episodes but won't get an article because he or she is filler and therefore doesn't at all matter to the series. The Filler arcs are just some extra space between the manga and anime, besides that they are meaningless. I never said we're deleting Tsunade's article, just that it is very confusing what to do with her, since she has yet to do anything remotely important since episode 100. It's possibl, mabye likely, we'll keep hers, but her subject is just very difficult. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Fillers can be mentioned in a character page. So they do count. It's just a common sense issue. Like 50% of Hinata's page should not be her role in the filler arcs. In regards to Asuma, Gai and some of the other characters you mentioned. Relationships and personality do make an article. That's what the focus of the pages are now. Before it was mostly unnecessary plot until it was decided to trim that down and focus on the character's relationships, personality, and abilities.

I don't see any question about Tsunade. Jiraiya hasn't done anything lately either and I don't see anyone looking to merge him. Kankuro and Temari are more than just Gaara's siblings. Kankuro matured a lot from his Part 1 self. Temari has always been one of the most developed side characters. Her connection to Shikamaru also gives her an issue and personality away from Gaara. I can't argue about Sai, but I do believe Asuma and Gai warrant pages. What to do with the rest of the Rookie 9 is the question. JaceBX 02:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

But Jiraiya has still done more than Tsunade overall, and we really can't say anymore about tsunade than what is currently one her article, which means it will remain at that size until more about her is revealed or she shows more of a role, neither of which seem to happen soon. I do agree on the Temari and Kankuro pages, you know, as they have done alot of stuff even if about half of it counts as being with Gaara. Asuma and Guy are questionable. Asuma's article is basically completed, and I'm not sure about Guy. The only ones who basically need to be merged are Sai, Zabuza and Haku, and Kakuzu and Hidan, because their role is actually very small, they're role in the series has ended, and/or thier article has basically been completed and is still very small. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

My view on Hinata, Asuma, the Third, Guy, Jiraiya, and Tsunade remains the same. They have legitatmently done enough to warrent there articles, while Zabuza and Haku's role was minor and done. Sai I guess COULD be merged in with Team 7 in the Konoha 11 thing (as he technically replaced Sasuke).TheUltimate3 00:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I never said anything about Jiraiya except he should have an article, as he has done more than Tsunade and is Naruto's most important teacher (he's done more for Naruto than Kakashi for sure) There's little an argument for Sai, he's the least importnat of Team 7/Kakashi and the only one who hasn't actually done something in more than one arc. I honestly could care less about Guy having an article or not, although his is small compared to other articles. Asuma and the Third have ended in the series, the Third a long time ago. After looking over the Hinata article, hers is now too long for merging or it would just be very difficult to merge, so you own over her. Tsunade is a mystery to me, she only played an actual role in one arc while after that all she does is go "Mission mission mission", but her role was very important. It's confusing. I've also re-edited the list of ones who should lose their article. Zabuza and Haku are definetly gone, and Sai is still only a second-rate character. Hidan and Kakuzu are completed and they are Akatsuki's least important members plot-wise so far. Sasori has a large history and abilities list compared to the other two, so he should retain his article (just barely).

Also, please note that I am about to bring the subject up of Deidara getting an article. I know we've gone over this alot, but after seeing a tiny bit of chapter 360 on Youtube, it is now clear Deidara will play a very important role among Akatsuki. We should at least make a sandbox-sceleton for his article like we did with Itachi and see if it is big enough. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Deidara, sure. Sasori (I guess if you put his rather large background and his abilities) sure, Zabuza and Haku sure (they were minor. Still beyond me why they 'seemed' so important.). Like I said, Sai COULD be added to the Konoha 11 page under Team Kakash as he technically replaced Sasuke. Asuma, the Third, and Tsunade you already know my views on this, so repeating would be stupid on my part. TheUltimate3 02:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Or Deidara could die in the next few chapters and his role would have been no different than Sasori, Hidan, and Kakuzu. Just used to hype up one of Naruto's generation. It's best to wait until this arc is over before making a Deidara page. I am all for Sai being added to the Konoha 11. I'd have no problem with Kiba, Choji, and Hinata going there to. JaceBX 17:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Kiba and Choji have done far more than the ones who did get merged, and there role is as big as other characters, so they retain theirs. I've lost interest in Hinata anymore, she can have hers or not. Right now all we're discussing is Zabuza and Haku, Sai, Deidara, and the dead Akatsuki. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Sasori was given a stupidly larege bit of backstory, abilities, ect so he can keep is. Deidara I can see him getting an article as it will most likely be updated because manga love to give people backstories before they die. Zabuza and Haku even when they were alive were minute and minor. Nuff said on them. EDIT: Oh yeah, Sai. He can't be added to Konoha 11 as I keep getting told, he is not a real member of Konoha 11, (and the fact adding him would make them the Konoha 12). His status I would say keep his article more or less on the fact that he is still important enough not to be jumbled into the long List of Naruto Characters, but still not member of Konoha 11. TheUltimate3 19:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is there isn't a good place for Zabuza and Haku. They shouldn't be added to "minor enemies" because that page is for the small ones that only get a bit of screen time and then are defeated quickly and filler enemies. We could make a large "Gato Syndicate" topic and merge the two to the Gato topic, but the problem is there really isn't much to say about the Gato Syndicate. We could easily merge Hidan and Kakuzu back to Akatsuki, since the Akatsuki page could describe them quite nicely. Sasori has a bit too much backstory and abilities to be merged back to Akatsuki if we also do Kakuzu and Hidan, and he already has a fairly large article, so we can keep his. Deidara has also done enough for a page. Might I also add that if Deidara had died in the Rescue Gaara arc, he probably would have an article. Now, though, Deidara is alive and has done alot more, so he has definetly done enough to warrant his own article. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

We can put Haku and Zabuza on the main Character-Page beside Yugito or so, if we got no other choice. Everything is better than an own article for them, while characters like Ino have none. ~ Felcis 22:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Quit whinning about how some articles got merged, it's been decided upon and its over with. That is for the characters that can't be described as an enemy or ally, and currently only two fit that description, Yugito and Kimmimaro's farther. Haku and Zabuza are enemies, but have done far more than the minor enemies on the minor enemy list. There is simply no good place to put them. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

I don´t whine about Ino, I´m just saying it would be odd. oO

Minor villains wouldn´t be that bad, the only unfitting thing is the name of the category. I really can´t think of another choice. ~ Felcis 22:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

So what you're saying Artist is that Zabuza and Haku, while being minor has to large of backstories to be merged. They are like Sai in my opinion. Sai while being currently minor has alot of backstory to him, especially his change from "I have no emotions" to "I read this will help friends!!!". He is far to important to be in the ANBU section, yet he is not apart of Konoha 11 (technically he did join Team 7, but that was more or less Team Yamato) so he can't be moved there...they just fall through the cracks...TheUltimate3 23:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say (very badly) is that Haku and Zabuza and Sai are just very difficult to merge, even though their roles are over with or simply minor. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Which is equivilant to them falling through the cracks. They are in very grey areas. I say we just leave them as they are, as we can't merge them.TheUltimate3 00:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you in Sai´s case but not in Haku´s and Zabuza´s. It´s about time that they lose their articles and a bigger entry in "Minor villains" should be fine enough. ~ Felcis 01:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I also think that Sai will slowly get more important so it's all right for him to have his own article. Haku and Zabuza are not major villains. The only major villains are the Akatsuki and Orochimaru, minor villains would be fine. But I do not know WHY Temari and Kankurou warrant their own articles. They've done less than Ino by far. Everything they do is Gaara-related. In fact, their articles were smaller than Ino's before Ino was merged.

Its been somewhat established (if I read correctly) that Temari and Kankuro can keep their articles by the fact they have done enough, and are fleshed out enough on there own.TheUltimate3 19:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

A revision of my previous list:

Choji: Constantly recurring, important role in Shikamaru's life, Sasuke Retrieval arc. Keep

Kiba: Constantly recurring, his history with Akamaru, Sasuke arc. Keep

Hinata: I'm actually against her article, but she constantly develops. That's about it. Keep

Kankuro and Temari: Half of their role is simply being with Gaara, but the other hlaf is almost always important. Keep

Tsunade: Search for tsunade arc, large personality, constantly recurring. Keep

Guy: Lee's role model, constantly recurring. Keep

Third Hokage: I don't see any reason for his article to exist anymore.

Zabuza and Haku: They played an important role in the beginning, but they've been dead for 300 chapters. I say it's time for them to pass on. --Suggested for merge. Discuss

Sai: Member of Team 7, that's about it. --Suggested for merge. Discuss

Yamoto: Leader of Team 7, and he does more than Sai. Keep

Hidan and Kakuzu: It seems they will altogehter be the most unimportant members of Akatsuki for the series, but I'm not really sure how you would reduce the size of their articles into the Akatsuki page.

Sasori: Major history, Gaara arc, large abilities.

Asuma: Role in Shikamaru's life, his death.

Deidara: Most of you will probsbly go "He doesn't have an article", but Deidara has now shown enough for an article, including a small history, several large battles, and some personality. --Suggested for Article. Discuss

All we need to do is further discuss the Akatsuki members, Asuma, Sai, Z and H, and the Third. In my opinion, I say we should ditch Hidan and Kakuzu and make an article entirely for Akatsuki members. The Third and Asuma can keep theirs unless the series gets too big and they aren't even mentioned anymore. Sasori could have some discussion, but lets keep his. Sai will probably do more for the series, so lets keep him too. All we need to do is see if SnapperTo or Sephiroth *** object or agree for a merger with them. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 18:39 (Eastern Standard Time); 3 July 2007.

And who exactly decided upon all of those keeps? ~SnapperTo 22:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow, for once someone else is actualy discussing this. >_<

Anyway, I thought it was already discussed about Kiba, Choji, and Hinata from previously said information. TheUltimate3 said Temari and Kankuro had been discussed already, and I believed that. No one seemed against Tsunade or Guy or Yamato, either. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:48 (Eastern Standard Time); 3 July 2007.

I'll refer you to this discussion then. ~SnapperTo 23:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Temari and Kankuro are as important as Ino. Just give Kurenai, Tenten, Shino and Ino their articles back and forget about merging anyone. Their articles were large enough to be rated B class. If we just give them back their articles, this discussion will end.

So you suggest giving them back their articles only to satisfy the public. I'm sorry, but that sounds more like a complete fan-boy/girl statement about Naruto rather than a Wikipedia-worthy statement. Now that I see that it is much better for them to be merged, we should keep it that way. As said, the only ones who should retain their articles 100% are Team 7, Lee and Neji, Shikamaru, Gaara, Orochimaru and Jiraiya, and Itachi, and possibly Kabuto, since we should wait and see how he develops with Orochi inside of him. We could debate with the others, but only these ones should have no arguments.

Naruto is a very popular anime and manga. There are many less popular anime/manga that have seperate articles for all the main / important supporting characters. Bleach, for example, though that's just excessive. That's why everyone should just have their articles back.203.81.209.133 09:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

While Im not sure how I missed the rest of Team Kurenai being merged, its been done. Now I some how doubt this will ever be done...TheUltimate3 10:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Chouji's been merged too. Just let everyone retain their articles! And it makes no sense for Team Kurenai, Chouji, Ino, Kiba, Hinata, Shino and Tenten to lose their articles when Hidan, Temari, Haku, Zabuza and Kankuro still have theirs. I vote for either giving everyone back their articles (which I have mentioned about three times) or stripping Hidan, Temari, Haku, Zabuza and Kankuro of their articles. There should be no question that Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Shikamaru, Neji and Lee rightfully deserve their articles.203.81.209.226 17:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

While I dont see Temari or Kankuro in any danger, they have appeared enough and have done enough as Neji and Lee (Neji, Lee, Kankuro, and Temari have appeared in and was important to the Chunin Exams, Rescue Sasuke Arc, and rescue Gaara Arc.) but everytime somebody complains about this, more and more articles end up merged and whatever Order that was here before the Merging Orgy gets more erased. I say at this point we put an end to the merging and the debating in general and keep everything as is, at least for now. TheUltimate3 17:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

There are two misconceptions I keep seeing:

1. That since Haku has an article while Choji does not means that Haku gets to keep his and Choji doesn't. That's not the case; it only means Choji was merged before Haku.
2. That these characters need to have articles. This is also not the case; unless you can point me to a character that has been merged and has lost information essential to better understanding them during the transfer, I don't see why it matters whether or not they have an article.

So deal with the facts, unless you can pull a good reason for keeping the articles out of thin air. ~SnapperTo 18:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I do have a very simple question, so any who answers it please don't take it out of context: Exactly why are we (and by "we" I mean "the few") merging all of these characters together?TheUltimate3 18:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Because "we" have always been "the few". Every project the Naruto articles have faced has been undertaken by maybe 2-3 editors, no matter how many more than that support the idea. As for why "the few" are merging articles, why not? I have yet to see one good reason why articles shouldn't be merged aside from the fact other series are far less selective about who gets an article or some character momentarily has an article while another does not. I again ask, "Where has there been a loss of information?" Aside from something that could easily reappear as a ref, I doubt there is anything that was in some character's article that is not in their entry on a list. Because nobody has proven me wrong yet, I ask why it matters whether or not character X has an article if you can still find out everything you'd want to know by reading their entry? ~SnapperTo 18:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

So what is the end result Snap? How many more characters are going to be merged into a long list and how many do you expect to be left when its over? TheUltimate3 18:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaking from personal opinion of what's left, there are 7 characters who should keep their articles, 7 who should be merged, and 11 that I'm unsure about for one reason or another. I could go either way with these 11, though for some I lean more in one direction than I do another. ~SnapperTo 18:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, whatever you might be planning, Team 7, Gaara, Lee and Neji, Shikamaru, Jiraiya, and Orochimaru should still have their articles. We should probably keep Itachi and Kabuto for now too, and see how they develop during this current arc, we could see more importance out of them. It would also have been better for you to list which seven are mergers, as most of them probably are. (If I could guess, Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori, Zabuza, Haku, Asuma, and Guy are probably those who are the mergerings) User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Kind of random section break

As per Artist, my ideas are as follows:

Keep

• Gaara
• Kakashi Hatake
• Naruto Uzumaki
• Orochimaru (Naruto)
• Sakura Haruno
• Sasuke Uchiha
• Shikamaru Nara

Undecided

• Asuma Sarutobi
• Itachi Uchiha
• Jiraiya (Naruto)
• Kabuto Yakushi
• Might Guy
• Neji Hyuga
• Rock Lee
• Sai (Naruto)
• Sasori
• Tsunade (Naruto)
• Yamato (Naruto)

Merge

• Haku (Naruto)
• Hidan (Naruto)
• Kakuzu
• Kankuro (Naruto)
• Temari (Naruto)
• Third Hokage
• Zabuza Momochi

Consider. ~SnapperTo 23:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

/sigh KEEP: Itachi, Guy, Neji, Lee, Sai Sasori, Tsunade, Yamato, the Third, Temari, Kankuro, Kabuto, Jiraiya UNDECIDED: Haku, Zabuza, Hidan. MIDDLE GROUND: If Sai were to be merged, I say move him to Konoha 11 (and before one says "He's not apart of Konoha 11", technically he did join Team 7 to replace Sasuke, so technically he deserves a spot in the Team 7 area.) STATEMENT: Why is it that some characters gain articles and lose them according to Arc? If that was the case there would be no logical reason to have character articles to begin with because they will get them, then lose them when the arc there in is done. TheUltimate3 00:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was mostly right. I could easily see Temari and Kankuro and the Third merged, little or no important information would be lost. Jiraiya, Lee, and Neji have done as much as Sakura has done and are far more notable than Tenten or Haku and have a lot of information. We should keep Itachi and Kabuto for now and see just how they'll develop this arc. Asuma and guy should be merged, they have done very little on their own that stands out besides be a team leader. Sasori, after thinking about it, has a very large amount of info that is difficult to merge, let's decide him later. Sai and Yamato will probably be doing alot more the series being members of Naruto's team, so it would be safe to keep them. Tsunade is a tricky decision, but I'll say merge. So basically, keep every member of Team 7 ever, Orochimaru and Jiraiya, Lee and Neji, Gaara, Shikamaru, Sai and Yamato, Itachi, and Kabuto, and until the rest are merged Sasori. The rest we should merge.

Also, I might as well just comment the only real part of the Third's, Zabuza and Haku's, and Kakuzu and Hidan's articles are their deaths, without that they would have already been merges.

I also feel bad that I've been busy elsewhere on Wikipedia and haven't helped here at all, so I'll help with the merges now too.User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I take by that last statement Artist that now whatever I say will be taken with a deaf ear on this matter. Regardless, if anything Asuma can be merged, but Guy has done alot through out the series and not just one arc to allow him to keep an article, same as Tsunade and the Third. I stick by my stance of Temari and Kankuro, who might not have been centerized as Lee or Neji but have done some what of an equal amount as them throughout. TheUltimate3 00:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Importance within a series is not a proper criteria. Large amounts of nontrivial, necessary content is. Kankuro and Temari don't have that; Lee and Neji kind of do. That is the difference between them. ~SnapperTo 00:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Then would you be so kind as to point them out to me please. TheUltimate3 00:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Point who out? ~SnapperTo 00:57, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The trival, unnecessary content that Kankuro and Temari have yet Lee and Neji don't. TheUltimate3 00:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Their personality sections are a good deal longer than they need to be, but that wasn't my point. There is more that can be said about Neji and Lee than there is Kankuro and Temari. ~SnapperTo 01:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, TU3, but I was making comment while you were but then came an editing conflict, which rather than actually reading I decided to skip and further edit on my comment. And I will be helping with the merges now, most of what I did elsewhere is now finished.

To articles business, I agree with Snapper2 over Tmeari and Kankuro, they are largely expanded upon. They could be trimmed down alot, and after that they'd be entirely merge material. Several other articles are largely expanded when they really should just be merged. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:12 (Eastern Standard Time), 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh joy I'm alone again. /sigh what to do...what to do...Hey because I'm alone on this one (again ATM) can we hold off on any decision making until others voice there opinions. Everything I say alone will be dwarfed as of now. TheUltimate3 01:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Definitely keep Neji, Lee, Itachi, Jiraiya and Kabuto. Sai and Yamato are slowly getting more important so I'm pretty unsure there. And definitely merge all the characters in the merge list.

Id like to now add, that after looking over Guy, there is enough info equal to that of Neji or Lee. Just wanted to point that out. TheUltimate3 12:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked over it too, but in reality it is largely expanded upon when it could be shortened down majorly, particularily his backround. The last paragraph especially isn't at all backround, just rather his relationship with Lee. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 10:06 (Eastern Standard Time), 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I know this is a double comment, but I want to get Kakuzu over with. All those who agree that Kakuzu be merged say so, and all those who disagree oppose the idea. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:10 (Eastern Standard Time), 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep: All from "Keep" + Rock Lee, Neji Hyuga, Jiraya, Tsunade, Kabuto, Yamato. Merge: All from "Merge", Asuma + Guy (I don´t see any reason to keep them if we merged characters like Hinata and Choji), Sasori (you really still consider to keep an one arc villain like HIM? give me a break... >>). Undecided: Itachi (he is similiar to Hinata: it is clear that he will be important later, but he hasn´t done much so far, except tormenting Sasuke and doing stuffs in the past like killing cannon fooder; but I still tend to keep) and Sai (difficult really...I would say keep for the moment, because of his perosnality). ~ Felcis 23:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

So basically, no one at all sees any reason for Kakuzu not to be merged. I'll still wait some more, though. Edit: Okay, I moved all information from the Kakuzu page to Akatsuki, although I did not put any references, because there are just soo many, I don't have the time to look through all of them and see which matter and which don't. That will be for someone else to do. Please, if you read this, please choose which references matter the most and put them on his section in Akatsuki before his article is deleted. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:44 (Eastern Standard Time), 6 July 2007 (UTC)

And on a completely unrelated note: A guy Sicko has once again gone through the trouble to replace a few of the images for Sakura, Lee, Neji, Ino, Hinata, Tenten, and Naruto. I think I fixed Naruto and Sakura, but I'm not sure if they fudged up the none-free Fair Use Rational again. And because my computer may be acting like POS to me at the moment I can't properly fix them myself. Just wanted to let that out there.TheUltimate3 01:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

So, about Kakuzu: "merging" does not mean you paste his entire article in his entry at Akatsuki (Naruto) and then remove all of the references. "Merging" is taking what was in the article and making it shorter while still communicating the same kind of information. And as for removing the refs, why did you do that? That's the one positive thing about his article. ~SnapperTo 02:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

O RLY? I never said I removed the references, I only said I didn't have time to look over his article and see which references were the most necessary or not. If during a point between the moving and the time you are reading this that the references were missing, then that was done by somebody else, not me. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 12:18 (Eastern Standard Time), 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Apologies; I made an "in general" comment without reading earlier comments. Still, there really isn't a need to check references for importance as there technically isn't a limit on how many you can have. Apologies again. ~SnapperTo 18:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

It's pkay. Also, let's take a break from the constant discussion of removing and keeping articles, and instead let us discuss the new changes to the pictures of several characters (Sakrua, Neji, etc.). To describe them basically, they suck. Badly. The old ones were of much better quality, particularily for Sakura and Itachi. It seems that even if we revert them back to their original pictures, the pic in the character box remains the same. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:00 (Eastern Standard Time), 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been saying that for DAYS. Some guy Sicko keeps changing the pics to very bad versions he got saved on his computer. I try to put them back, but my computer or wiki's server sucks. TheUltimate3 19:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

If you aren't seeing the image you should be seeing try clearing your cache. ~SnapperTo 01:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow the only talk page article I don't watch does this, wow. But anyways if this disscussion is still going then i say this:

Keep: Every one except what I list below

merge: Third Hokage, Sai, Asuma, and Guy.

Sam ov the blue sand 19:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit too late for Kakuzu, his merged section on the Akatsuki page finishes the job up nicely and all that's left at all is to remove his article as a whole. Speaking of the Akatsuki page, it seems to be getting alot bigger as the series continues, and I'm sure the smaller member sections will get bigger eventually. I don't think this should be 100% done, but I suggest we split the Akatsuki page so there is a seperate page for the members and organization. The page is already very large, and if we remove the members section it could largely help with removing the in-universe information. As said, this is only a suggestion, we should only take it into consideration. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:27 (Eastern Standard Time), 7 July 2007 (UTC)

My opinions (of the ones that aren't already in Keep) -

Keep: Itachi, Jiraiya, Kabuto, Guy, Neji, Lee, Tsunade, Zabuza, Haku, Third Hokage.

Undecided: Asuma, Sai, Yamato

And merge the others. The Splendiferous Gegiford 20:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that Kakuzu lost his article, I edited the character template so that it goes to Kakuzu's merged section directly. I also suggest that we add Deidara and Kisame to the template, seeing as they have done noticibly enough and 1/4 of the other characters are merged already, and apparently other will be too. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:45 (Eastern Standard time), 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok no offense to artist but please don't treat me as a new member or an IP I don't like that, and its never too late to revert something.Sam ov the blue sand 20:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Did I offend you with that? I didn't mean to. Sorry. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:00 (Eastern Standard time), 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he was trying to rude, but it IS a hell of a lot harder to revert large changes than minor. Mergers and the like once they are done, usually stay done. TheUltimate3 21:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow who here can tell this guy is a little new? ^_^ I could do it in two seconds but its just the matter of arguing with everyone else which I happen to be realy good at.Sam ov the blue sand 21:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Its not the editing thats hard. Its the Edit War would probably erupt and that will be irratating. EDIT: And just to re-add this little "issue", apparently I was in the wrong when I attempted to comment to Sickman Photo (I think that was the name)'s talk page about the images he uploads. SO...if we aren't in agreement with the pictures, what do we do about it?TheUltimate3 22:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Why do you believe yourself to be in the wrong? If you are referring to the message Someguy left on Sickman's talk page under your message, that was directed at Sickman. ~SnapperTo 01:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This is annoying. All members of Team 7, Team 8, Team 10, and Team Guy should have a page. It isn't like Tenten will always be left out while Rock Lee and Neji are in the spotlight. She needs an article and as the story progresses she might be more important. Plus Ino and Hinata have contributed to their teams as much as Sakura has.

And there's where you're wrong. They don't need an article. All of the information relevant to them still gets across in their entries on a list. ~SnapperTo 19:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Snapper2, all the information needed for them was kept when the Konoha 11 got merged. The same goes for Kakuzu, too. Has any information been lost from his article that is a immediate importance? No, all that is needed to know about him is right on the Akatsuki page. The same goes for any other pages that will get merged if there are any, they are merged because of how you can sum them up someplace outside of their topic without losing important information while keeping it short. Only a handful of characters are beyond merging now, the rest are debatable, more so for others. An example, a character with a large amount of information that are still recurring like Jiraiya or Neji would be less likely to merged compared to Zabuza or Haku, who aren't recurring anymore and a merge could sum them up nicely. I'm not saying any more will be merged, however, non have yet been decided. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:06 (Eastern Standard time), 9 July 2007 (UTC)

First thing I want to say is thank you Snapper for the hell you gave me trying to find Kankuro's History page >_<. Second I would like to point out those who are against mergers (please note: I am still against alot of mergers) I just went through both Temari and Kankuro's pages and if you ignore different wordings here and there, they are exactly the same. EDIT: As for more mergers, I say we slow down for a little bit. Give ourselves, and Wikipedians in general a grace period of sorts. Let more chapters come out, some arcs finish and see what to do next. TheUltimate3 22:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I figured Kankuro (disambiguation) would be better placed at Kankuro, to be moved whenever an admin stumbled upon it or somebody requested it. Of course, it wasn't until after I changed the redirect of Kankuro that I realized I didn't need outside assistance to make the move, but it's now too late for that. ~SnapperTo 02:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

So is it decided that all the articles under Merge are going to be merged? I really don't want to see Zabuza, Haku, and Third Hokage merged since they were such important characters for their time. The Splendiferous Gegiford 17:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ultimate3 has asked to slow the pace for one reason or another, so I won't be merging at the moment unless I foresee little to no objection to it. As for your suggestions, I'm trying to steer the criteria for having an article away from being important within the series. Instead, I'd prefer only characters who can no longer feasibly be put into a list of some sort receive an article. While the Third might satisfy this if you were to save all of his jutsu detail, I don't think Haku or Zabuza adequately qualify. ~SnapperTo 17:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I know the merging is over for now, but I would like to know for future references, how can someone find out how many bytes longs the page is? User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:57 (Eastern Standard time), 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Refer to the article's history; each edit is accompanied by a byte amount representing the revision's size. ~SnapperTo 00:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Snapper2. Okay, here are now my opinions over the mergings:

Keep:Naruto, Orochimaru, Sasuke, Kakashi, Gaara, Sakura, Shikamaru, Tsunade, Lee, Jiraiya, Neji, Itachi, Sasori, Deidara

Merge:Haku, Hidan, Zabuza, Asuma, Sai, Yamato, Kabuto, Guy, Third Hokage

Also, please note this is only my opinion, and instead of importance, this is based on the size of the articles. All articles over 10,000 bytes should stay in my opinion, although Guy and the Third Hokage look a little expanded upon to me, particularily Guy. Any under 7,000 should downright be merged, (which is only Sai, Asuma, and Yamato, Yamato being the worst of them) while the ones in between 10,000 and 8,000 could have some debating. Hidan and Haku and Zabuza are over with now, they will no longer serve any importance and merging them probably won't leave out important information. (although it won't be any easier on the Akatsuki page in terms of size) The Third is kinda long for a merger with his abilities in mind, Guy is ovr 10,000 but seems a bit forcibly expanded, Sasori is dead, and Kabuto is still alive but has a short article. I do realize, though, that we are temporarily pausing on the mergings, but we can still discuss the worst of the worst before hand? User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:27 (Eastern Standard time), 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge Haku and Zabuza into a single "Zabuza and Haku" article. I think this would be good enough. In Akatsuki, merde Hidan, keep Itachi, Sasori, Orochimaru. Rookies: keep Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Shikamaru, Lee, Neji (maybe) and Gaara. Merge the rest rookies, Asuma, Yamato. Also keep Kakashi, Kabuto, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Guy, Sandaime. - 200.209.169.81 16:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure if merging the two together into their own single topic would look like a good idea, mabye if we make a Gato Syndicate topic and merge them into it? User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 1:56 (Eastern Standard Time), 13 July 2007 (UTC)

That may help for those two. As for Guy, the only thing I think that could be considered expanded on would be the Lee part of his background. With a little trimming it should be alright for an article. As for Asuma, his info (particularly his death) is extensive and as I see it, unfit to merge into the List of Konoha Ninja. Sai I can see added to the Team 7 part of Konoha 11 (hell his name is there so he could join Team 7), and Yamato...because in the manga we are reaching a part where supressing the Kyubi will be important, we may or may not learn more about him. So over all like I said, we should hold off until we see whats to come. TheUltimate3 18:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we take a break from deleting articles for the moments and instead talk about creating one, more specifically Deidara. If you want to discuss him getting a page or not, please talk here. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:58 (Eastern Standard Time), 14 July 2007 (UTC)

WHOO! Alright finally. TheUltimate3 19:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I've updated the list I put, Kabuto is now in merge, and Sasori and Deidara keep. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:00 (Eastern Standard Time), 14 July 2007 (UTC)

This is what I get for taking a break. In any case, the only articles that should definitely be kept are Naruto Uzumaki, Sakura Haruno, Sasuke Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake, and Shikamaru Nara. A bar has been set due to all of the Konoha 11 mergers, and the characters have to be considered in that light.Yes, the "oh, we'll have more information in the future" argument has weight, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We make due with the information we have at the time, and honestly, aside from the characters previously mentioned, all other characters have been relatively minor. And as I've seen saying for quite a while, any of these articles can be kept if you can establish a definite out-of-universe voice using out-of-universe information. Really, look at WP:ANIME#Good articles or article such as Dante (Devil May Cry) for what I am referring to. Take Naruto, who is present in every single Naruto-related game (and there's quite a few), present in the Naruto TCG, present in three movies, and is popular in Japan. Development comments by Kishimoto, comments on his character from verifiable (WP:V) third party sources, and others are also welcome. In truth, if characters can be written about in such a manner, practically every article could be kept (save recently introduced characters, or completely minor characters). However, this has not been done, and people knowledgeable about the Naruto games and other media spend more time vandalizing than contributing. As of now, the rest should be merged, unless someone can dig up this information and present it in a concerted fashion. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 01:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait, when did things start getting bad? Aside from the few stupid vandals, nothing really happened since the break. TheUltimate3 02:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Gaara should also be kept, he has far too much information to be merged, and Tsunade and Orochimaru also have a large amount of information. It would be safe keeping Jiraiya, Lee, Neji, and Itachi, and giving Deidara an article, as the pages would are each over 10,000 bytes, which is definetly large enough for an article. Sai, Yamato, Asuma, Zabuza, Haku, and Kabuto are too small for articles and/or no longer play a role in the series. Guy and the Third are largely extended in certain areas (especially Guy) but it would be safe merging them. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 12:27 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

/sigh so much for the nice quiet. Tsunade, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Lee, Neji, Itachi, Shikamaru, the Third, and Guy should keep there articles. Yamato I don't want to see him the sea of Konoha ninja as he has importance to the overall team (such as the fox supressor), Sai I also don't want to see there, and I still feel he would be most at home in the Team 7 section. I also think Sasori should have kept his article, it was fairly large with a good amount of info (may have been 10,000 bytes, but I don't know) And look at the Akatsuki page I want to say give the memebrs of the organization there own page "Akatsuki Members" but then that would make the "Akatsuki Organization" page to small. TheUltimate3 16:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Except Guy and possibly the Third, TheUltimate3 is largely correct. Sasori's almost made it to 10,000 bytes, he was just 151 short. There really isn't a good place for Sai and Yamato, but their pages are the two smallest of the bunch, even smaller than Asuma, although his death is the main reason his is bigger. And is it me, or am I the only one here who so much as remembers Gaara, who has even more information than Sakura or Shikamaru? Mabye we should make a seperate article for the Hokages and merge the Third into it, it would help shorten the Konoha ninja page and we can write more about the Hokages. That seems to go a little too far, though. Yes, spliting the Akatsuki page would shorten the organization part, but with the members no longer the main part of the article we can concentrate more about the organization and bring it back to GA with a load of tweaking, and if it perfectly written it might make A Class, but it would have to be written so perfectly that the hope of reaching A-Class is too tiny. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:06 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't be to difficult I suppose. A different pages for the Hokages. And the same with the Akatsuki stuff...more on this we should discuss. (A little Yoda talk..)TheUltimate3 18:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

You know what, let's just forget this. Let's just merge every single Naruto character article there is without even discussing it and then think up a random excuse to why it was done. If all we even think Naruto character articles now are just another random article to merge, than why should we even have any? User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:55 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Calm down Artist, calm down. I was asleep, so I couldn't repost. Ignore what DavidHozAu said, I think he is just bitter. Lets keep the discussions that actually work, and I suggest you most of all take a break from this for a few days or something if it messed you up this bad. TheUltimate3 18:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, part of the reason I was angry was because I woke up too early and I'm tired. (If I lose even an hour of sleep I can get terribly angry. ^_^ ) But seriously, just about the only people who take Naruto character articles seriously anymore is both you an me, the rest only see them as merging playthings. I actually think it would be best if we merge all article besides the ones that are beyond merging (the seven Snapper2 put in Keep and Tsunade, basically) and start from scratch on who gets an article and who doesn't. Instead of seeing which should be merged, we're seeing which SHOULDN'T be merged like what we were supposed to do this entire time. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:50 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to do that because thats far to extreme (And oh can I see a backlash /shiver) If we are the only ones that take the articles seriously as you say, then that should make us somewhat fight harder. Anyway back to the discussions. So far, as said there are very few who could be merged or placed well. Guy for example is said to be expanded on, however his character is so linked to Lee, that some of there info is linked which is why its long enough to 10,000. The Sannin all have well over 10,000 (Orochimaru however is still in the older format, but once its changed and the images reorganized right I don't see it being lower than 10,000), Asuma I can see merged. Through out the entire series he had as little info as Kurenai (why cant I spell that name), but Sai and Yamato. They are to small and have to be merged I accepted that...but where to put them....Because in an out of universe standpoint when I think of those two, I think of them more on Naruto's team, his direct team. Because people won't allow Sai (or Sasuke) to be on the Konoha 11 page, and Yamato again from an out of universe standpoint seems more a member of Team Kakashi than ANBU, I want to keep there articles simply because there isn't a place to put them well. More I have to say later. I haven't eaten anything for a good while...TheUltimate3 19:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Funny thing, while you were typing, I shortened Orochimaru's page. All we need to do is fully list his abilities, and his article is completed unless anything else should be added. Notice how instead of a Death section, I put it into Plot Overview, as he is still alive techniqually. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:27 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice. Now everything matches. Fits so well now. I will read up on his abilities...Its just..well, the only place I can think of has the abilties listed in there Japansese names...bah I'll figure this out.EDIT: Also references. I added two but Im going to look for more.TheUltimate3 19:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It will be hard for his abilities, he has 20, which is either the longest or second longest abilities list in the series (Kakashi probably knows more, but Orochimaru has shown more of his abilities than Kakashi). I just added several of his abilities, and I would continue to, but a storm is coming. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:22 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Another random section break

It was getting too long again. Oh, and Orochimaru's abilities are completed. Edit: I created an article for Deidara. Why? One, WP:BOLD. Two, any article that has enough information to surpass 10,000 bytes should exist. Three, to shorten the Akatsuki page.User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:54 (Eastern Standard Time), 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I had hoped merging Sasori would discourage this idea of yours, but apparently it hasn't. Deidara is no different from Hidan or Kakuzu, both of whom you felt should be merged. Why should Deidara be an exception? ~SnapperTo 20:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

As said, any article that has enough information to reach 10,000 bytes (unless the information is a massive repeat of the same information like Hinata's page was) should be an article. And Deidara is different from Hidan and Kakuzu because Deidara is largely explored and has backround and extensive personality information, while Kakuzu and Hidan have no real backround and their personalities, especially Kakuzu, aren't explained largely, and the main thing about them is their abilities, while Deidara plays actual roles outside of the arc he is introduced and has made more appearances than any other member. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:40 (Eastern Standard Time), 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how you reached the 10 kb goal, but that's irrelevant. I was under the impression we were merging characters who cannot feasibly exist on a list. Deidara has existed on a list since his introduction and still fits quite nicely. There is not enough information on him to make an article necessary. ~SnapperTo 20:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The main reason he is still on a list is because you have left out a good deal of information about him. What about his gender issues, his partnership with Tobi, or a, needed, much large explanation of his clay? Those are all left out simply so he can still be merged onto the page. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:53 (Eastern Standard Time), 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think fans' confusion with his gender needs to be mentioned (twice, I might add), especially since fans' opinions on anything tend to be excluded from Naruto articles. The list does have something on his relationship with Tobi, and what little new information there is in your article version can easily be added. As for the uniqueness of each type of clay, I'm not really concerned, though that too could easily go on the list. ~SnapperTo 21:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What about Sasori. We do learn about his background, his abilties, and whatnot do we?TheUltimate3 20:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sasori is beyond hope now. He only did one thing that actually matters to his character during the series, and that was fighting Sakura and Chiyo. His merge leaves out no information about him, unlike Deidara. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:09 (Eastern Standard Time), 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops, sorry Snapper2, I didn't notice your comment. >_< The confusion with his gender is actually noteworthy, even if it is fan-based. If you look back, even Wikipedia had listed Deidara as a girl before, which actually doesn't help your case much. I've tweaked his section a bit, the personality is listed first (like the other sections) and it also lists his ranking. Sorry it had to be a list, but after seeing SOTBS's idea of making it into a list, that was the only way I could think of putting the information there. The Tobi partnership is explained a little more too. Also, Snapper2, I would reconsider letting him have an article if I were you, it's big enough without repeating the smae information and under WP:FICT he is a noteworthy character, more so than the other Akatsuki (besides Itachi, who is on a whole other world from the average Akatsuki). It's 10,000 bytes, which is definetly long enough for an article. The Akatsuki page has become too big, it needs to be shortened as much as possible. There is more good giving him an article than there is bad. EDIT: I had nothing to do with what was just done to Deidara's page, the history section for Akatsuki can prove it. I won't change it back, though, as I still believe Deidara should have and keep his own page if there is enough non-repeated information to keep it to standards.(Splitting members and org., for example) User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:21 (Eastern Standard Time), 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of how long the blurb on his gender been there. I'm also aware that it's the only thing in the article that can't be sourced, as it's a series of observations on mistakes and another series of observations explaining how they are mistakes. The other additions to his entry are fine. As for your opinion on his article status, I will say it again: it is not whether or not he is important within the series, it is not whether or not an article on him reaches a certain size, it is whether or not he can or cannot be feasibly contained in a list of sorts. Even with your additions he still fits quite nicely in the Akatsuki article, even if the article itself is starting to get big. When the size of that article becomes unmanageable the solution will not be to be to start giving a select few characters article status, but to create something like List of Akatsuki members. ~SnapperTo 03:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of that too, we can't just make article for a few select members. Quite honestly, in fact, the only members I see having important enough a role to one day get articles are Itachi, Kisame, and the Leader (Itachi already has his, Kisame because he's Itachi's partner and will probably make a load of appearances unless he dies, and the Leader because he's the Leader) from what we already know. Mabye Tobi or Zetsu or the unnamed one will be more important than Kisame, or mabye there will be a new member joining in the future, or even Deidara still living, so I can't say this for certain. The only thing we can do at this point to shorten it is to split the page into the organization and the members. That would help alot for the organization, as the article is little more than a list of members with the organization put on top for decoration right now, splitting it at any time from this point would help concentrate on the organization alot more. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:03 (Eastern Standard Time), 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Artist my name is Sam not SOTBS so please call me Sam for now on. I don't under stand why Itachi has an article with Snapper's logic since "he can fit nicly into the Akatsuki article". Snapper are you serious, Have you been to the Akatsuki page it's starting to get unmanagable, the member section takes up 2 third of the page. The last time I checked the article name is "Akatsuki" the article should be about Akatsuki not the members I think an article like the one mentioned by Snapper is perfect.Sam ov the blue sand 19:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm, you do realize it was me and TheUltimate3 who originally suggested the split (this time around), right Sam? >_< I wouldn't call it unmanagable yet, let's just wait until it gets about 15,000-20,000 bytes bigger, than it would be completely unmanagable, but doing it now won't hurt. And Itachi's section on the Akatsuki page was a joke, all it was was an over-extened explanation of his history in the Uchiha Clan and a paragraph about his abilities for decoration, and only his Mangekyo Sharingan. There was no plot summary, 2/3rds of his abilities weren't listed, and there is no way that any new information about his past could have fit in that jumble of information. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:37 (Eastern Standard time), 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The majority of Akatsuki members deserve their own article. This is copied from my reply on the discussion page (where all such talk should be) of the Akatsuki article: I am just afraid that the mergings will a.) cut back from the info available on the characters (if no info was cut in terms of length, then that would address this), b.) make the Akatsuki article unwieldy and eclectic (the article is about the organization, including each member's biography and info detracts from that purpose, that is why individual character articles are encouraged; not to mention the odd format of some members having separate articles and some not). And character info can become available after their death, also the phrasing and presentation of the info can be changed to expand on the contents of the article. Snapper2, your criteria for characters who deserve articles is ludicrous. Itachi could easily be merged as well, I am quite able to shorten his info down to three paragraphs without all the extraneous info. Sasori's article was just as beefy before it was merged. Itachi's could have the same done to it keeping with the tradition of widespread merging. I could see members like Tobi and Zetsu not getting their own articles, but Sasori and Deidara both have well more than enough info behind them (not to mention fights and importance to the plot) to deserve their own article. If we want to merge Akatsuki members, then we should see to it that ALL be merged. Itachi is no exception. The great kawa 21:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

So then merge Itachi. Don't complain about one inconsistency because it conflicts with your ideal universe. ~SnapperTo 21:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer not to merge anything. But I think to have an entire article on one character, who we haven't seen a lot of, as the sole outlier among the active Akatsuki group is a tad inconsistent. I will be working on a merger for Itachi that preserves the majority of what info we have on him. The great kawa 21:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I hate edit conflicts. Itachi is beyond merging. His section was just what the backround section of his article is excluding the Akatsuki paragraph. His abilities only got one paragraph, and only his Sharingan. No other abilities were listed, and because Itachi actually does stuff independently (unlike all the other members besides the dead ones and Deidara) you need a little plot overview. In the end, that would only add about 10,000 unneeded bytes to the article. His topic describes him nicely, and he's doing stuff this current arc (while still living) so we might learn more about him, so just leave him be. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:33 (Eastern Standard Time), 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Itachi seems like the one Akatsuki member that is beyond merger. To simply but it, his character is not simply Akatsuki and Tailed Beasts extracting. There is also the "I killed my whole Clan to test my I can't spell either the M or the "eye" " about him. So on that note, I don't want to seem him merged. I also don't want to see teh Akatsuki page get any bigger as its already reaching "OMG this article is fudgin huge" level. TheUltimate3 21:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. With ANY article about an organization you are supposed to concentrate on the organization, not the members. What it is now is just the opposite. I'm doing the split. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:56 (Eastern Standard Time), 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I suppose I could reconsider letting Itachi have his own article. He hasn't had nearly as much action plot-wise as Deidara (who fought in big-time fights with six major characters with tons of interesting jutsu and has had a sufficient amount of background/motivation revealed) or Sasori (who was involved heavily with Orochimaru-Kabuto and the deaths of three kages), but being the motivation behind Sasuke's hatred might warrant an article. But seriously, both Deidara and Sasori have actually done much more than Itachi, and yet they only have a few paragraphs mentioned in the Akatsuki article. Can't we at least give them their own articles? Hidan and Kakuzu were there for a short time, and we don't know anything about Tobi, Zetsu, and Kisame (who had only three brief fights). I mean, Deidara, in the least deserves his own article. And Artist, that's what I have been saying the whole time. The article is about the organization, not the members, who should only have a paragraph at most in the Akatsuki article. Reserve the finer details for their own articles. The great kawa 22:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the organization part was already made as a point earlier. And remember: articles aren't plot anymore, and therefore only Itachi is a definite article, the rest are debatable (particularily Deidara and Sasori). And six? The only characters he fought were Itachi, Gaara, Naruto and Kakashi, and Sasuke. And Sasori has said he had nothing to do with the Fourth's death, it was Deidara who gave away the information to Orochimaru. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 18:26 (Eastern Standard Time), 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I meant five. And I am well aware of what Sasori said about the placement of Kabuto...yadayadayada. And why is only Itachi a definite article. He's more like the carrot at the end of the stick for Sasuke. He's not so much a major character as the thing which Sasuke must kill. He has only fought three brief fights (one which was not him) and has had so little info displayed about him (outside of the massacre) that we know nothing of his true motivations or character. Nothing a paragraph or two in the Akatsuki article can't cover. I'll think about whether to merge or not to merge Itachi after I've drawn out a template. The great kawa 22:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

As I have said, Itachi is beyond merging, it will take too many paragraphs to describe him, and he does more than be an Akatsuki and plays an actual role in the series. And hte fight with Naruto and Sasuke was a MAJOR battle, as it was one of the (quite a few) reasons Sasuke decided to ditch Konoha, and techniqually the main reason. Itachi's role is mainly in the past and with each passing arc we learn more and more about him, and it is much more managable to keep up with the new information in an article about him than a place where he is merged.

And actually take Itachi seriously instead of out of anger that the other articles were merged and Deidara doesn't have one. Itachi has done twice as much as Deidara, Deidara is simply another Akatsuki member who just gets more screen time, as his only role has been capturing Gaara and a few battles. Itachi killed the Uchiha Clan, fought Orochimaru and Deidara, became the main motivation Sasuke needed to ditch Konoha, and (to an extent this was done by him) distract Team 7 and Chiyo so Gaara could be sealed. And as said, we might learn alot more about him in this arc. He's keeping his article. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:00 (Eastern Standard Time), 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I am taking the Itachi situation very seriously and not just "out of anger" as you so eloquently put it. I am not taking it out on Itachi, I just find it odd that out of all the Akatsuki members which had articles of similar length, Itachi gets to keep his. Arguing about who has done more and at what point such a member deserves one's own article is subjective and seems to change from day to day in the Naruto section. I think it is very haphazard and particularly sloppy. The same is happening on this discussion page's article. I am going to say this right now, we need unbiased and as strictly defined criteria as possible for which characters deserve their own article, because as the pages are now, the character list page will never make it to B class and the Akatsuki page will not make it to GA class. My problem is NOT which characters get their own articles, it is the criteria that is used to determine that! If worse comes to worse, I suggest an experienced, objective third party comes in and rates the article in question and lists suggestions. Because there are only three or so active people on these particular articles who do most of the work and decide everything. The great kawa 09:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. The members list has already made B-Class, and without the organization page being a simple long list of members, it actually has a chance of making GA Class if we concentrate on the organization rather than the members and do some re-writing when needed. And I have been saying, if Itachi were to be merged, his section would completely flood over all the other members (even Deidara) and would make them seem small and uncared for by the editors in the view of those who are reading the page. All the information we could get on the other members is already there, so they can't be expanded to look like Itachi's. Not having Itachi there is exactly what makes it seem as well written as possible.User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 12:49 (Eastern Standard Time), 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Just a clarification, I wasn't referring to the Akastsuki character page recently split, I was referring to the Naruto one. The great kawa 03:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Time for the Ultimate!!!!! 3s take on this. Got to make it quick just got internet up and have a prior engagement to keep. Anywho, as I said previously, while I would like other Akatsuki members to have articles, Itachi is the only one who's character doesn't revolve Akatsuki (as in his past is actually important). Like I said prior engagements, and I have to hope around to keep my priorities here organized. More ont his later. TheUltimate3 20:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

A show of hands: Who wants to put the Naruto articles on some sort of lockdown?

I've been watching these all day. People keep comming up and adding either completely stupid stuff or fanon to the articles. So friends, who wants to put an old fashioned (as far as I can tell) lockdown up? Any takers? TheUltimate3 02:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Your proposal is vague. Do you want full protection (no reason for it) or semiprotection (warranted on some, no on others)? Which articles are you referring to? Some (Might Guy in particular) would warrant semiprotection, but others definitely would not. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 07:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Just so we're all clear....

We all agree on merging the Ino and Shino articles to the Rookie Nine page, correct?

I also thought there was an issue of making it sort of a Konoha 12 and add Tenten, if for anything but to lessen the load on the very long Konoha ninja page. TheUltimate3 22:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, mabye we'll add Tenten later, but right now we should just deal with Shino, Ino, and Hinata (I'm sure that with the opening of the Rookie Nine article to characters she'll lose hers very quickly, seeing as she does nothing since the Naruto vs. Neji fight) I feel like I'm the only one who feels that Hinata should be merged to the Rookie Nine, as she does little or no more than either Ino or Shino. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Why is it that Tenten is being excluded from the Konoha 11? She does participate in one of the 11's missions. ~SnapperTo 01:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thats what I was thinking. I also thought we should rename it Konoha 12 simply because it would make more sense. (Team Kakashi 3+Team Asmua 3+ Team Kurenai+3+Team Guy+3=Konaha 12). TheUltimate3 01:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

But that designation is never used in the series. We might as well create an article called "List of main characters in Naruto" if we're going to use self-created titles. Just pick between "Rookie 9" or "Konoha 11". ~SnapperTo 02:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Bah. Where's the fun in that. List of Main Characters in Naruto shows no creativness. Lets be rebels for once. And like I said, Rookie 9 would be limiting and Konaha 11 would be wrong. I really doubt there would be so much of a backlash to use Konoha 12. But thats just my view on it. TheUltimate3 02:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would Konoha 11 be wrong? Sasuke doesn't need to be given an entry. Saying he left Konoha before the formation of the group would be adequate. ~SnapperTo 02:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

My god he's right. Technically Sasuke won't. His name coule be added to the "Team Kakashi" section with the caption "Defected Konaha before the formation of Konaha 11." Now everything is making sense. TheUltimate3 10:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

So it seems we all agree. I'll merge Tenten, Shino, and Ino to the Rookie Nine Page, and also edit it a bit so it provides a full list of the Rookie Nine/Konoha 11 members and describe their accomplishments to the group, such as how far they got into the Chunin Exam and promotions, and a bit about Sasuke's defection. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

I guess that sounds right. Get to it. TheUltimate3 21:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

To anyone who tries to edit, please don't do it, because just when I was done with my idea I recoeved an edit conf;ict and it was all erased (a major flaw of Wikipedia). User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Yeah sorry about that. I didn't know when you commented (don't understand Wiki-time) and I figured I might as well start myself. It was mostly done when you arrived/cameback/finished editing. TheUltimate3 22:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, the merge is finished. All we basically have to do now is discuss if any other characters need merging and then we're finished. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares

Template Discussion

I just noticed the recent change to the template. I actually think it should go back to the old one that had links to Kiba and Choji and the other merged characters, because it actually seems like at least 7 other articles will be merged soon. Let's leave it as it was, a very large chunk of articles will be merged anyway, so let's make the template look full rather than empty. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 12:10 (Eastern Standard Time), 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm already ahead of you, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to edit the damn thing. EDIT: I think I got it...TheUltimate3 16:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Mabye we should add the other Akatsuki members to the template, now that about 1/3-1/2 of the articles will be merged anyway. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:35 (Eastern Standard Time), 6 July 2007 (UTC)