Talk:Khalistan Commando Force

POV bias

What is wrong with the page and more importantly, why does it need to be cleaned up? if u dispute any of the information offered, then please read the History of the Sikhs by the distinguished Satwant Singh and everything will be correlated and justified. There is an admittedly pro-Khalistan bias in some of the GRAMMAR but not, i repeat, NOT in the facts...it's the job of Khalistan protagonists to display the facts in their naked form since understanding of these merely strengthens the call for Sikh self-determination

Reworked the leadin, added refimprove

I rewrote the lead-in to focus it on the KCF, wikilinked the Khalistan movement, added sources.

I won't leave the claim about the KCF being considered freedom fighters long unless it is sourced.- sinneed (talk) 13:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts to improve the article in an neutral way. Reference has been added. Please pay your kind attention to sentence --> ,thereby diversifying and weakening of the focus of the Sikh freedom fighters.... you can read the whole paragraph. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 08:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

wp:CIRCULAR that is a copy of this article.- sinneed (talk) 11:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I rarely kill a source, but... these seem to clearly fail wp:RS... extremist.

SikhLionz.com: Martyrs: Shaheed Bhai Manbir Singh Chaheru
Copy of a Totse.com page supporting the KCF as "Freedom Fighters liberating the Sikh homeland"

- sinneed (talk) 00:32, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I am going to place the sources in the EL section, with a dubious flag.- sinneed (talk) 02:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

References appear fraudulent.

Commandos by By Icon Group International, Inc - Page 47
That is not the title, and the Icon group are, at best, editors...sort-of. The title is "Commandos: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases". The book is a database dump of examples of ALL KINDS OF WORDING referring to "commandos." The book is a fundraiser for an online dictionary organization.

'Punjab' by Icon Group International, Inc - Page 137
That is not the title, same as above. The title is "Punjab: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases". This book is also a database dump of examples of all kinds of wording referring to "Punjab." This book is also a fundraiser for the online dictionary organization.

I am not impressed. If I can identify the author, I will issue an appropriate warning.- sinneed (talk) 02:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Reorganization, large copy edit, much general editing, some sources checked, etc.

Needs more sourcing. There is also some content at Sikh extremism that could be copied here. Because the article was so very chopped up, with bits and pieces scattered, repeated, and unsourced, poorly-sourced, it was difficult in some cases to determine what the editors were trying to say... or there may have simply been a lot of debris from edit wars, can't tell.

Please fact-check, reference-check, and most importantly correct, expand, and Please Source.

Thank you.- sinneed (talk) 04:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

This source is a copy of an old version of this article.

Sanchez, Juan (2007). Terrorism & It's Effects. Global Media. Retrieved June 19, 2009. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Pressing the "back" button may show the article header, complete with the project banner. Removing all occurances, per wp:CIRCULAR.- sinneed (talk) 10:29, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Killed what I thought was a large scale WP:COPYVIO...

... but it turned out on detailed checking of the reference that it was simply a printed copy of this Wikipedia article wp:CIRCULAR. Ouch.- sinneed (talk) 10:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Please learn about sikhism and its code of conduct first

I would advice user Sinneed to rad Dera Sacha Sauda and Sikh code of conduct first so that he could find that Dera sacha sauda is in no way part of sikhism. If some newpaper make an error then it doesnot mean that we blindly start changing the text of wiki articles. He can also read [[Sikhism] to find its definition.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 10:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not rely on the knowledge of its editors (wp:primary sources). Wikipedia relys entirely on wp:secondary sources. Please take up your objections with the newspaper in question. Please see wp:BALANCE. Seek another wp:Reliable source which says what you find to be correct, and add that, if you wish.- sinneed (talk) 10:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I reviewed the article, and found that there was more informative wording available. I am a bit dubious of cutting the words "a Sikh sect" that are demonstrably in the article, and I hope I am not falling into the trap of wp:censorship to accommodate the wp:OR of another editor. The "anti-Sikh" wording as it was before broke wp:BLP... it might very well be deeply offensive to this living individual to be christened "anti-Sikh"... or it might not. Either way, it was not in the source. No matter, I have offered another edit I feel somewhat comfortable making.- sinneed (talk) 14:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Sinneed, Thanks a lot. I like history, I have lived in Punjab, I have good knowledge of how and what happened out there, But! I do not let my own knowledge bypass wiki rules. The advantage of knowing history help us in looking for the required seconday sources, but there are several challenges in finding them. I always try extremely hard to look for them so that I could put things in true sence AND alongwith references. Also, if you come across any question especially on Khalistan movement, please feel free to ask me, I would be more than happy to point you towards right direction.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 00:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

wp:talk - Please focus on the content.- sinneed (talk) 01:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

And please, log in. - sinneed (talk) 01:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Daily Burning Punjab, a legitimate source

"Burning Daily Punjab" is a non-profit and very informative web site. There are several NPOV Khalistan movement related books available online, but in sevarl cases you will find some of their contents restricted or 'out of online review' under various reasons. But this site has finally put several of those books here. You can click any of these books and it takes to the 'complete' text of these books, as in the case of Fighting for Faith and Nation by Cynthia Keppley Mahmood case.

Kindly note that in 1980s, Khalistan movement related encounters/acts/assasinations occured almost on daily basis in northern India and all of those incidents were duly documented by both regional newspapers of this specific region, i.e. by The Tribune and by [Ajit but unfortunately none of them had any online additions prior to year 2001, Proofs 1 - The Tribune - Archives and Proof 2 - Ajit - Archives. Please remember, India is a developing country and NOT a developed nation, its newspaper houses were lagging behind rest of the world in terms of technology/online additions in the past.

Also remember, US state department says that Over 41,000 cash bounties were paid to police in Punjab for extrajudicial killings of Sikhs between 1991 and 1993 alone. Even Indian Supreme Court called the Indian government's murder of Sikhs "worse than genocide.", it was not a small movement, Indian Government has murdered over 150,000 Sikhs under a big media blackout.

So if we really want to preserve the history of Khalistan movement related personalities etc, if we really want to improve Khalistan movement related articles on wikipedia then we must be extremely careful while killing/branding available sources as POV and or dubious etc. Past is past, new sources will not get birth, newly upgraded newspaper sites will document new history only. I have spend my days and nights on searching for seconday references, lets save the history. Sinneed, I consider your editing trend as very honest, I am requesting you to reconsider contents of this website. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 00:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

References

All very interesting. I would point to wp:talk and encourage more focus on the content, rather than the swaying of other editors opinions about Punjab, etc. We are not the audience.

I am not sure what you are trying to convey, except that the "Daily Burning Punjab" is acceptable as a wp:RS, which may be true in the future, but is not now.

If you would like to open an RfC about the site, "Daily Burning Punjab", it may be that you will be able to get this rather extreme website accepted as wp:RS. It might also be worth taking to the Reliable Sources page for discussion. Happily, we need not rely on non wp:RS in order to improve wikipedia.

Remember that paper press articles are *MORE* valuable than online ones... it is not a problem to cite, say, a 1945 New York Times article... or, say, a 1985 Tribune of India article, but it is more work for you, as you must cite the issue, the article name, etc. You may also be challenged to provide the specific quote (in fact you may count on it if the point is in contention). If I cite the 1979 Memphis Busines Journal, though, it will fail wp:V, even if I have a copy in my hand... no one will be able to verify that I am citing an actual article unless they travel to Memphis, TN, USA, and visit the archives. The same will prove true of many paper documents. They will fail wp:V, and won't be acceptable as sources for inclusion of disputed content.

That said, remember that any content that is not challenged and meets the rules of Wikipedia (and the law, etc.) is fine... it is included based on a consensus of one. :)- sinneed (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Inquiry

I think a mistake may have been made with this edit. I wasn't able to find what it refers to. It would be better for the article if we included specifics.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 00:18, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

updated reference to say 'page 8' and one person. thank you for correction Decora (talk) 02:22, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

NPOV tag

I added it for several issues. First, I dont judge if the organization is terrorist or a resistance movement, but as this is an encyclopedia, the article cannot state, quote: "Khalistan forces are freedom fighters.[6] And not terrorist [7]". Rewrite that in a proper WP tone, please. I also rewrote this: "Kanwarjit Singh Sultanwind, then 23 years old, was killed brutally in jail.", as the source given states something very different, that he commited suicide while in custody. WP is an encyclopedia, not a political forum, so please adhere to reality and reliable sources.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

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Labeling on lead and other parts of article

DBigXray claims "it is widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject".[1] This is very wrong.

Describes "Khalistan Commando Force" as "organization" only.[2]

"A militant group, the Khalistan Commando Force, was created that would act for the council." [3]

"The Khalistan Commando Force was the only militant group in Punjab"[4]

"Khalistan Commando Force is a military force".[5]

Lists under "National Organizations".[6]

Reliable sources don't call it a "terrorist" organization and thus I am removing such POV pushing against WP:TERRORIST from the article. "Radical" is among contentious label, that should not be used. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 16:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

• Terrorist word is used per policy when it is widely used by reliable sources. Please see the multiple reliable third party sources such as Books, journals, newspapers such as New york Times, Chicago times etc etc. all using Terrorist organisation for Khalistan Commando force. --DBigXrayᗙ 21:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

in the early 1992, Khalistan Commando force had 63 subgroups... for a total of 167 terrorist groups.

References

Included among the many Sikh terrorist groups are Dal Khalsa, Bhindranwale Tiger Force, Saheed Khalsa Force, the Khalistan Liberation Front, and the Khalistan Commando Force.

References

... the Khalistan Commando Force, and the Bhindranwale Tiger Force of Khalistan - terrorist groups

References

... front of Punjabi militants mainly comprised of Fringe extremist organizations, Khalistan Commando Force (KCF), KAF, Babbar Khalsa BKI, KLF..

References

the decade-long period of terrorism in Punjab, from 1982 to 1993. During those years, the separatist group Khalistan Commando Force proclaimed the independence of Punjab and engaged in a series of terrorist activities to attain its goal

References

...The most powerful Sikh terrorist group, the Khalistan Commando Force...

References

...was led by such terrorist organizations as the Khalistan Commando Force.

References

A major breakthrough occurred when Wassan Singh Zaffarwal, chief of a major terrorist group the Khalistan Commando Force (KCF), returned to Punjab from Switzerland on April 11, 2001

References

A statement by the Khalistan Commando Force, a terrorist faction, took responsibility for the slayings and said such assaults would continue until police forces stopped what the group said were killings of young Sikh terrorist suspects.

References

The Khalistan Commando Force, the main Sikh terrorist group, took responsibility for the attack Monday in Punjab in a note that read: The Indian Government has been killing Sikhs almost every day. Hindus have not raised their voice against the killing, so we have decided to carry out this killing. For every Sikh killed we will kill 100 Hindus.

References

Mr. Awan was charged with sending money to the group, Khalistan Commando Force, a terrorist organization advocating the creation of a separate state in the Punjab region of India

References

Meanwhile, the police reported no progress in the search for four gunmen who assassinated former army Chief of Staff, Gen. Arun S. Vaidya. The most powerful Sikh terrorist group, the Khalistan Commando Force, took responsibility for the revenge killing of the general.

References

Khalistan Commando Force, one of the most dreaded terrorist groups in the Punjab. Khalistan is the name of the independent nation the extremists are seeking.

References

Entry B, in Encyclopedia of Terrorism. Babbar Khalsa, Khalistan commando force

References

MHA added KLF as the 40th organisation to the banned list which also includes four other Sikh extremist groups - Babbar Khalsa International, Khalistan Commando Force, Khalistan Zindabad Force and International Sikh Youth Federation. KLF has been banned under the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UAPA) for committing and promoting various acts of terrorism in India as well as recruitment of youth for terrorist activities in the country.

References

In fact, multiple intelligence bureau (IB) and research and analysis wing (R&AW) inputs shared in last six months, have mentioned that Sikh terrorist outfits – Babbar Khalsa International (BKI), Khalistan Commando Force (Panjwar faction), International Sikh Youth Federation (led by Lakhbir Singh Rode), Khalistan Tiger Force (KTF), Khalistan Liberation Force (KLF) etc are under pressure of Pak-ISI to activate militancy in Punjab.

References

Delhi Crime branch arrests Khalistan Commando Force terrorist

References

The police here today found a huge pile of weapons allegedly belonging to the terrorist outfit, Khalistan Commando Force (KCF).

References

--DBigXrayᗙ 21:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

I am now more assured that you don't even have idea about what is supposed to be a WP:RS, since your self-published sources, news clipping fails RS. You are still yet to grasp WP:TERRORIST: "Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." Your POV edits which are failing to provide sources to provide description and your addition of unsourced labels clearly shows you are not understanding the policy. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 00:52, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Harmanprtjhj please explain which of these sources is not WP:RS according to you and why ?--DBigXrayᗙ 01:17, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Not all but some are unreliable. Ultimately they all fail the requirement detailed by the policy on WP:TERRORIST. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 02:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Harmanprtjhj I repeat, please explain with diff which of these sources is not WP:RS according to you and why ? the Question of WP:TERRORIST is secondary.--DBigXrayᗙ 13:40, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Do I really have to describe you that lulu, a video clipping from 1987, etc. are in reliable sources? And once again, none of these references pass the requirement detailed by WP:TERRORIST. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 02:10, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

• A disproportionately large number of mainstream media calls this organisation as a "Terrorist organisation". Multiple independent third party reliable sources have been presented above to clarify that this is appropriately mentioned in the article. If you are trying to say that the above are not reliable sources then we can discuss them. Claiming that these sources does not exist is a demonstration of WP:IDHT. Kindly stop this whitewashing before you are blocked for repeated WP:Tendentious editing--DBigXrayᗙ 13:59, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

• User:Harmanprtjhj I am still waiting for your response on the specific questions I raised above. --DBigXrayᗙ 15:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• I have restored reliable sources back into the article as no reasonable justification was produced against these sources, or any valid policy based reasons as to why they should not be included. --DBigXrayᗙ 04:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 January 2019

Please restore the reliable sources and undo this revert [7] made by the IP 103.255.4.8, while evading his ban per WP:SOCKSTRIKE This IP geolocating to the same location has already been blocked, see [8] DBigXrayᗙ 14:02, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Consensus is against your edits which are violating the policies as confirmed by third opinions elsewhere. Also read my explanations above once again. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 21:34, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Kindly explain your reasons and explain which policies are being violated? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:37, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

WP:TERRORIST and WP:NPOV is being violated and DBigXray has already been told by enough editors (on ANI) that he is wrong with his edits. No one except him believes that he was correct. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 22:24, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

In my view, we must be circumspect about the terrorist label being applied to individuals. But organisations and incidents do not have that kind of a concession. For the latter, when they practise terrorist tactics in a factual sense, they should be called so, assuming reliable sources do it. To me, that seems to be the case here. You are welcome to take it to WP:NPOVN. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:17, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

"In my view" is irrelevant. Have you ever read WP:TERRORIST? Wikipedia dont really bother calling groups a "terrorist" as facts, and doing it otherwise is POV pushing. You should talk about policies. You are welcome to change that policy by proposing changes on its talk page. Harmanprtjhj (talk) 02:38, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Harmanprtjhj it is clear by your comment above, that you seem to believe the word "terrorist" should never by used anywhere. WP:TERRORIST never says what you are claiming and misrepresenting above. experienced editors have read these policies and know its implementation. it would really help you if you stop this tendentious editing and join the discussion in the thread above to raise concerns if any. Multiple reliable sources have been presented above to show how this organisation is represented in media.--DBigXrayᗙ 10:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wikipedia's policy on WP:TERRORIST applies on both individuals and groups. They require in-line attribution which has been already given on the sentence "The Government of India has declared and banned KCF as a terrorist organisation." That is certainly enough. That said, I would also recommend Kautilya3 to stop tag teaming with DBigXray over what is utter gibberish. 103.60.175.111 (talk) 10:27, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
•  Not done: I agree that WP:SOCKSTRIKE generally permits reverts of edits made by banned editors but I am declining to do so in this case because of the ongoing content dispute which led to protection in the first place. Please discuss the matter and reach consensus before making a new edit request. Also, anyone who reads this should consider this a warning: keep your discussion to this specific content issue. Do not discuss the actions or supposed motivation of any other editor in this discussion. In fact, see below. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:36, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions notice

Per the WP:ARBIPA discretionary sanctions this article and its talk page are placed under a strict civility restriction and 1RR restriction effective immediately and indefinitely. If I see any editor ignoring this warning you will be blocked from editing. Do NOT ping me about this matter, I am watching the page and will make my own conclusions. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:36, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Ivanvector please consider indefinite ECP also per Wikipedia:General sanctions/India–Pakistan conflict since this is part of India pakistan conflict. (source ET, Statesman "Pakistan based Khalistan Commando Force" ) And then we have these open proxy IPs tag teaming for edit warring on content against policies. --DBigXrayᗙ 06:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Infobox Designated as a terrorist group by India

The infobox says, Designated as a terrorist group by India.

References

Harmanprtjhj can you explain why you are removing this reliably sourced information, this is highly disruptive. --DBigXrayᗙ 04:17, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:LABEL forbids smearing subject with such terms regardless of your cherrypicking. Don't need to say more. 113.170.22.125 (talk) 05:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

1. LABEL is a guideline and not a policy, 2. Where does it state that you cannot use the word terrrorist ? --DBigXrayᗙ 06:09, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

• Some IP addresses (likely one person) have been removing content and references from the infobox, lead and elsewhere in the article under the LABEL/TERRORIST guidelines. This is incorrect, if you want to change the descriptor/lead sentence discuss here or change that specific instance, removing references, content and infobox parameters is not done.

@DBigXray: The specific problem seems to be the terrorist designation in the lead, I think militant would be more apt here and should be changed to that. Gotitbro (talk) 21:22, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

The edit which I reverted and which is being restored by IPs under the banner of WP:LABEL and WP:TERRORISM. The problem with it:

Incorrect removal of infobox parameter which is completely valid: |designated_as_terror_group_by=; Incorrect lead change: it is not simply an organization (a descriptor has to be there either militant or terrorist); non RS "partitionofindia.com" used as citation for addition of POV; incorrect removal of content and references under MHA terrorism listing; incorrect change of non-conformant WP:SEEALSO section.

None of these clearly fall under the label/terrorism guidelines being listed by the IPs and such edits shouldn't be restored. Gotitbro (talk) 21:58, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

• I think these edits of mine address the issues raised by users on the Talk page. Please see. Gotitbro (talk) 00:03, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

But we should not label the group as "terrorist" anywhere else. "Terrorist" is attributed to the organisation that calls them terrorist and the mention of Indian government recognising the group as terrorist has been already provided per WP:TERRORIST. The references on lead added for pushing the POV term "terrorist" are not needed on the lead either. 39.42.107.139 (talk) 09:22, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

• Gotitbro, yes this is obvious sock/meat puppetry using blacklisted IPs.
• I agree with your observation that this IP and Harmanprtjhj are using LABEL as a lame excuse to editwar their whitewashed version of the article. This sort of behavior on a controversial article is despicable and they should be sanctioned if they continue the same behavior.
• "terrorist designation in the lead", is being discussed 2 sections above in the section titles #Labeling on lead and other parts of article please check my comments there to understand my position.
• This section is to discuss the infobox parameter " |designated_as_terror_group_by=; which is properly attributed as the guideline WP:LABEL suggests and sourced to reliable sources listed above. The IP above has failed to respond to my questions explaining their state and I will be restoring the edits soon. --DBigXrayᗙ 06:02, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Instead of deceiving others you should stop ignoring the fact that Gotitbro also disagreed with smearing the subject as "terrorist". See WP:TERRORIST. "designated_as_terror_group_by= " is an imaginary POV paramenter created by you to further your POV pushing since Template:Infobox militant organization lacks it. Be aware of WP:BLUDGEON and don't expect a response when you lack any sense. 39.42.107.139 (talk) 09:22, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

If only India has called it a terrotist grpup we must make that clear, the claim needs attribution. But by the same token can and should be included. Slatersteven 09:39, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Exactly my point and Indian claim has been already mentioned. I further doubt if "status" parameter on Infobox should actually state that India banned this group or simply say that the group is active or inactive. 39.42.107.139 (talk) 09:49, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Seems valid, how do we treat other "terrorist" groups?Slatersteven (talk) 09:52, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Per Template:Infobox militant organization, it can state which countries have banned although I have no strong opinion about this, but at least the flag should be removed. 39.42.107.139 (talk) 10:13, 31 March 2019 (UTC):

• If no one has any objections I am going to restore the lead proposed above by me. @39.42.107.139: designated_as_terror_group_by= is not an "imaginary" (whatever that means) parameter and is used prominently on articles of militant groups on WP (e.g. Al Qaeda) so that is no argument, just because the documentation does not state it the param does not become invalid. Also stop with your personal attacks and labelling editors as incompetent, agenda pushers etc. just because you don't agree with them. Gotitbro (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Source that Gurbaz Singh is the new head of the KCF?

There seems to be no source or evidence that this guy "Gurbaz Singh" is the new head, even after searching it up. Spaceinvader1234 (talk) 18:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)