Talk:Inuinnaqtun
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i'm doing research on eskimo dialects. it's getting rather complex.
Merge
editA merge tag has been put on here and Inuinnaqtun but no reason given as to why they should. I don't think they should be merged. As the Inuvialuktun article points out it is a political designation for three different dialects, none of which are Inuinnaqtun. Inuvialuktun is used as a term only in the Northwest Territories and covers, Siglitun, Uummarmiutun and Kangiryuarmiutun. Inuinnaqtun is an official language of both Nunavut and the Northwest Territories and is similar to Kangiryuarmiutun but is not part of the Inuvialuktun. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 11:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Requested move
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page not moved. Ronhjones (Talk) 22:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Inuinnaq dialect → Inuinnaqtun — As per WP:Common name. Other than mirrors this appears to be a name made up for Wikipedia and neither Google books or Google scholar show any results for "Inuinnaq dialect". Compare this with Google, Google books and Google scholar. Although "Inuinnaq language" is sometimes used it is not the most common wording, Google, Google books and Google scholar. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:14, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't think about this before but using "dialect" or "language" violates the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. Some, such as this, say it is a dialect but others including the governments of the NWT and Nunavut recognise it as a language. So using the plain Inuinnaqtun is less POV rather than Wikipedia taking a stance on its status. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:40, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- What about Inuinnaq Inuit to cope with the language-or-dialect issue, akin to XX Arabic or XX Chinese? --JorisvS (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- That would be worse than this. It would translate to "the real person (human) the people". CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:03, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's thinking in the language in question, not English. In English "Inuinnaq(tun)" or "Inuit" means no such thing. And I don't have to remind you that this is the English WP, do I? --JorisvS (talk) 18:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Of course this is the English Wikipedia that's why we should some thought to what the title would mean in English. From Inuinnaqtun English Dictionary published by Nunavut Arctic College gives the following: Inuinnaq translates to "a real inuk; an Eskimo person" with Inuinnait as the plural, inuk (note, not a capital I, there is no capitalised Inuk in this language/dialect, also the plural is not given but would be inuit) translates to "person; human being", Inuinnaqtun translates to "in an Eskimo way; like an Inuinnaq; the language of the Inuinnait". Similar translations also appear in Kangiryuarmiut Uqauhingita Numiktittitdjutingit (Basic Kangiryuarmiut Eskimo Dictionary) by Ronald Lowe. What do you think that Inuinnaq(tun) or Inuit mean? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- In English "Inuinnaq" does not mean "a real [person; human being]". In Inuinnaq it does mean that, but not in English. English has loaned that word from Inuinnaq to become a proper noun used to refer to the specific people, and, by extension, their language. Inuinnaq may only have "inuk", but English only "Inuk". --JorisvS (talk) 19:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- You can't say Inuinnaq and mean the language/dialect. Inuinnaq is a loan word from Inuinnaqtun used in English and translates to "a real inuk; an Eskimo person". CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Give me one example sentence where this word is actually used to mean that..in English. --JorisvS (talk) 16:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- While I doubt that I can find a sentence that specifically says the Inuinnaq are the real people both of the dictionaries I give above do translate Inuinnaq that way. There is footnote 2 from The northern Copper Inuit by Richard Guy Condon which uses Inuinnaq, Inuinnait and Inuinnaqtun in context that makes it clear which word means what. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Cut the crap. I'm not asking for these words in Inuinnaq and you know it. The English "Inuinnaq" does not mean "real person etc.", otherwise we would be hearing it being used in everyday conversation. Any examples you can give have it as a proper noun referring specifically to this people and by extension their speech. And sure, "Inuinnaqtun" has also been used by some, but that is less recognizable and an unnecessary new term. --JorisvS (talk) 10:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just because I misunderstood your question does not mean you need to start being rude. Inuinnaqtun is not a new term for the language/dialect but the traditional word. Saying Inuinnaq is the word for speech is not correct. That is the equivalent of saying that Inuk (Inuit) can be used as a term for Inuktitut. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Cut the crap. I'm not asking for these words in Inuinnaq and you know it. The English "Inuinnaq" does not mean "real person etc.", otherwise we would be hearing it being used in everyday conversation. Any examples you can give have it as a proper noun referring specifically to this people and by extension their speech. And sure, "Inuinnaqtun" has also been used by some, but that is less recognizable and an unnecessary new term. --JorisvS (talk) 10:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- While I doubt that I can find a sentence that specifically says the Inuinnaq are the real people both of the dictionaries I give above do translate Inuinnaq that way. There is footnote 2 from The northern Copper Inuit by Richard Guy Condon which uses Inuinnaq, Inuinnait and Inuinnaqtun in context that makes it clear which word means what. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Give me one example sentence where this word is actually used to mean that..in English. --JorisvS (talk) 16:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- You can't say Inuinnaq and mean the language/dialect. Inuinnaq is a loan word from Inuinnaqtun used in English and translates to "a real inuk; an Eskimo person". CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- In English "Inuinnaq" does not mean "a real [person; human being]". In Inuinnaq it does mean that, but not in English. English has loaned that word from Inuinnaq to become a proper noun used to refer to the specific people, and, by extension, their language. Inuinnaq may only have "inuk", but English only "Inuk". --JorisvS (talk) 19:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Of course this is the English Wikipedia that's why we should some thought to what the title would mean in English. From Inuinnaqtun English Dictionary published by Nunavut Arctic College gives the following: Inuinnaq translates to "a real inuk; an Eskimo person" with Inuinnait as the plural, inuk (note, not a capital I, there is no capitalised Inuk in this language/dialect, also the plural is not given but would be inuit) translates to "person; human being", Inuinnaqtun translates to "in an Eskimo way; like an Inuinnaq; the language of the Inuinnait". Similar translations also appear in Kangiryuarmiut Uqauhingita Numiktittitdjutingit (Basic Kangiryuarmiut Eskimo Dictionary) by Ronald Lowe. What do you think that Inuinnaq(tun) or Inuit mean? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's thinking in the language in question, not English. In English "Inuinnaq(tun)" or "Inuit" means no such thing. And I don't have to remind you that this is the English WP, do I? --JorisvS (talk) 18:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- That would be worse than this. It would translate to "the real person (human) the people". CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:03, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- What about Inuinnaq Inuit to cope with the language-or-dialect issue, akin to XX Arabic or XX Chinese? --JorisvS (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- I reread the discussion again and you are right it is mainly repetition and talking past each other. I guess I see them as having the same status as kayak, igloo and inukshuk. Words that started out as non-Englsih but have now been adopted in to English. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I think I do too (though I'm not certain of kayak). English igloo means specifically "snowhouse", while the original Inuit means "house" (whatever it is made of) and English inukshuk means specifically those 'stone landmarks built by Artic peoples' while the original Inuit means "person substitute". In these cases, like is the case with "Inuinnaq", these words have acquired more specific meanings in English than they originally had in Inuit. This is point I am trying to convey. --JorisvS (talk) 12:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support per wp:precise, use concise titles. Also, a dialect is a language without a flag or an army. walk victor falk talk 13:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: There are countless languages without flag, army etc. that are rightly not considered dialects but languages in their own right. --JorisvS (talk) 10:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose "Inuinnaq" is a proper noun that refers to the people and, by extension, to the language in English. Inuinnaqtun is less recognizable to the uninitiated, just like "Setswana" and "Motswana" are. Therefore "Inuinnaq dialect/language/Inuit" is preferable, just like "Tswana language" and "Tswana people", see WP:Naming conventions (languages). --JorisvS (talk) 10:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Accessibility: these are all unfamiliar names for the vast majority of English speakers, so best to keep the variation to a minimum. "Inuinnaqtun" will of course appear in boldface in the lead.
- And of course what it translates as is irrelevant. If we used that as a guideline, we'd have to move half of the ethnic and language articles on WP: The Chinese are not the people of the Qin Dynasty, for example, and Hadza people means 'people people' whereas Hadza language means 'people language', the same situation we have here. But those are nonetheless the terms we use in English. Cf also Torpenhow Hill—no-one is proposing that we rename that article. In any case, "Inuinnaqtun" also means 'people (language)', as it's just the attributive form of Inuinnaq; in English, we have non-derived attributives, so the two forms are equivalent.
- 'Dialect' vs. 'language' is another issue, and a legitimate one, but can be decided independently of this proposal. — kwami (talk) 22:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously this is going to close as no consensus to move. Should then the following four be moved to standardise all the articles in Category:Inuit language; Uummarmiutun dialect to Uummarmiut dialect, Siglitun dialect to Siglit dialect, Nunatsiavummiutut dialect to Nunatsiavummiut dialect and Kangiryuarmiutun dialect to Kangiryuarmiut dialect? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'd say so. Of course, the native forms should be given as well, and it may be that the writer will be more comfortable using them once they've been introduced to the reader. That works too. — kwami (talk) 06:56, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously this is going to close as no consensus to move. Should then the following four be moved to standardise all the articles in Category:Inuit language; Uummarmiutun dialect to Uummarmiut dialect, Siglitun dialect to Siglit dialect, Nunatsiavummiutut dialect to Nunatsiavummiut dialect and Kangiryuarmiutun dialect to Kangiryuarmiut dialect? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Reversion of edit
editThe reversion was done with a very unclear edit summary. So what exactly was the problem that required the entire article to be reverted?
- My removal of "|fam2=Eskimo" was an error and one I should not have made.
- "|fam3=[[Inuit language|Inuit]]" is a redirect to Inuit languages and "|fam4=[[Inuvialuk language|Inuvialuk]]" is a redirect to Inuvialuktun and the word Inuvialuk does not have anything to do with the language but is singular for Inuvialuit so listing it as the language is an error.
- For the "|nation=" I added references. Since when do we remove valid references?
- I added the fact tag at "|agency=" because I could not find anything that indicate the ITK is a regulator for the language in List of language regulators, the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami or their website.
- The three language codes (|iso1=iu|iso2=iku|iso3=ikt) were from an earlier revision and the third one leads to a reference that shows this language. Again removing valid references?
- In the body of the article "[[Inuvialuk language|Inuvialuktun]]" is a redirect to Inuvialuktun.
- I added a reference, "<ref name="lang">[http://www.justice.gov.nu.ca/apps/docs/download.aspx?file=Consolidated%20Law/Current/633640406483281250-1760189776-conssnu2008c10.pdf Consolidation of (S.Nu. 2008,c.10) (NIF) Official Languages Act] and [http://www.justice.gov.nu.ca/apps/docs/download.aspx?file=Consolidated%20Law/Current/634060764873541250-611697957-consSNu2008c17.pdf Consolidation of Inuit Language Protection Act]</ref>." Again since when do we remove references?
- "[[Kitikmeot Region, Nunavut|Kitikmeot Region]]" is a redirect to Kitikmeot Region.
- Yet again a reference, "<ref>[http://www.irc.inuvialuit.com/culture/language.html IRC - Languages]</ref>", was removed.
- I looked at the external link, "* [http://www.kitikmeotheritage.ca/bowmaking/Glossary/glossary.htm Glossary], Kitikmeot Heritage", and saw it was dead. It looked like it was useful so I added the Wayback Machine archive of it, "* [http://web.archive.org/web/20120822043533/http://www.kitikmeotheritage.ca/bowmaking/Glossary/glossary.htm Glossary of Bow and Hunting Terms], Kitikmeot Heritage from the [[Wayback Machine]]".
- Finally I removed the word "Language" from the sort template because it wasn't doing anything. It would be useful if there were other Inuinnaqtun entries but this is the only one.
So which was the offending edit that was so terrible it required all the valid edits to be reverted? Based on this and the other two, Talk:Uummarmiutun#Unexplained reversion and Talk:Kangiryuarmiutun#Unexplained reversion, it looks petty and as if it was done out of spite. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 12:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC) CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 12:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
- Ibid. — kwami (talk) 20:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
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