Talk:Greco-Italian War/Archive 4

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This wikipedia page (Personal attack removed)

Δρ.Κ. has falsely accused me of "war editing". Like with the New York Times article reporting a German colonel praising the Italian role during Operation Brevity, I have used British or American newspapers to relay in English what the Italian high command at the time had to say about the defeat of four Greek divisions and two elite Evzones regiments near Vjosa River towards the end of the Greco-Italian War. Note that Greek and British military communiques do not refute the Italian allegations. If we can have the German version of events regarding the role of the 8th Bersaglieri Regiment at Halfaya Pass, why can't we have the Italian high command's version of events regarding the role of the Italian 9th Army near Vjosa River? I was hoping to improve this Wikipedia page to do with the Greco-Italian War without some hawk censuring everything I do. He has even removed a diary entry from the Italian foreign minister, Count Galeazzo Ciano at the time, claiming that the source (De Felice (1990), p. 125) I used to back up the claim that the Italian troops "had tied down Greek forces" was written by a fascist when that same source already appears (before my edits) at the end of the following paragraph:

In anticipation of the German attack, the British and some Greeks urged a withdrawal of the army of Epirus to spare badly needed troops and equipment to repel the Germans. However, national sentiment forbade the abandonment of such hard-won positions. The mentality that retreat in the face of the Italians would be disgraceful and overriding military logic caused them to ignore the British warning. Therefore, 15 divisions, the bulk of the Greek army, were left deep in Albania as German forces approached. General Wilson derided this reluctance as "the fetishistic doctrine that not a yard of ground should be yielded to the Italians"; only six of the 21 Greek divisions were left to oppose the German attack.https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Greco-Italian_War#cite_note-64

And I press my case with the following extract from the Wikipedia page to do with Operation Brevity:

On 5 August, Colonel von Herff praised the Bersaglieri, who had defended Halfaya Pass "...with lionlike courage until the last man against stronger enemy forces. The greatest part of them died faithful to the flag.https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Operation_Brevity

If Δρ.Κ. holds the moral ground, then I dare him to go ahead and remove the comments of Colonel Maximilian von Herff, after all the New York Times article that relayed his view of the Bersaglieri to the world came from the from a committed Nazi officer, with the okay from the German high command.--100menonmars (talk) 14:03, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Per wp:HISTRS the recently added part has been removed. Please follow the correspodent instructions per mentioned policy.Alexikoua (talk) 14:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua I have now included primary sources to back up the Italian claims. Please show good faith and do not remove recent content.--100menonmars (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

In case this will be the product of concensus, I have no problem on that.Alexikoua (talk) 14:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The primary sources are that: primary. They cannot be used without corroborating evidence, especially when dealing with a war, where truth and accuracy are wanting. In this case, they cannot be (mis)used to imply that the Italian 9th Army "captured" Greek troops when the entire Greek Epirus army had surrendered two days before, and was already in effect demobilizing and decomposing, with men leaving their units and going to their homes... Far from portraying the Italians favourably, inserting such a claim only helps to make them appear ridiculous, I am afraid. Constantine ✍ 15:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I have reinserted paragraphs that were removed without a valid explanation. I have now formally made a complaint, demanding that the sockpuppetry stop.--100menonmars (talk) 16:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I am impartial on this issue, and i hoping to provide an unofficial 3rd point. From what i have read thus far the issue seems to be mostly over the use of Renzo De Felio as a source and the quote "tied down Greek forces". For the moment i am not engaging the primary source used in the latest edit.

I cannot access De Felio's work, so issue one is: is the quote accurate? Does De Felio state that this is the reason why high ranking Italian officials arrived to visit the troops?

Issue two, is the source reliable? The wiki page on De Felio, while not a reliable source, does not call him a fascist or a fascist-leaning historian. To the contary, it calls him a socialist. However, reliable source wise and in a quick effort to understand who this man is, i have accessed the first few English (since i cannot read Italian) articles on JSTOR that are purly about the man and his work.

Michael Ledeen compares De Felio's Intervista sul fascismo with A.J.P. Taylor's Origins of the Second World War (Ledeen, p. 269). Ledeen argues that the debate that raged around the work was part of the leftover heritage of the fascist era and politically motivated. He also argues that "it is impossible for anyone to gain acceptance in Italian intellectual circles without proclaiming a staunch antifascism" (Ledeen, pp. 281-282). Borden Painter Jr makes quite a similar argument, stating that De Felio's work were being released and engaged in political terms rather than purely historical ones, and notes one example of a debate in 1988 becoming "absorbed into a larger debate over Stalinism" (Painter, p. 391). Despite the political fighting surrounding his works, Painter concludes "De Felice has succeeded as a historian not because everyone agrees with what he has written but because, as with Jacob Burckhardt on the Renaissance or Geoffrey Elton on Tudor England, everyone who writes on the subject has to take his views into account" (Painter, p. 405). Emilio Gentile, in a tribute to De Felice following his death, notes his popularity from the President down and notes that the Italian media "declared [him] one of the greatest Italian historians of the twentieth century" not to mention foreign newspapers also lauded him. Gentile notes that the media outpouring "praised [him] for or his independent spirit, his intellectual courage, the thoroughness of his research and his innovative interpretations which opened up new avenues in the historiography of fascism." However, Gentile notes that De Felio had a lot of critics who stated he should not be called a historian due to his methods, called his works as an attempt to rehabilitating Mussolini and fascism, and some students attempted to stop lectures (Gentile, p. 139). Gentile heaps a lot of praise on the man and argues that his output was important to the study of the fascist era, concluding that while his work will need to be reexamined "we should take his work further than he did, without destroying his contribution and thus falling back to an earlier stage".(Gentile, p. 151)

The conclusion i draw from what i have read, the accusations "Rv POV terminology (tied down) by unreliable Italian source" and "There are no good-faith issues involved when removing POV language by historians with fascist POV issues." are rather unwarranted and a much better reason needs to be given over why some of these edits are being reverted due to the use of De Felio.

Gentil, Emilio (1997) Renzo De Felice: A Tribute, Journal of Contemporary History, http://www.jstor.org/stable/261237

Ledeen, Michael (1976) Renzo De Felice and the Controversy over Italian Fascism, Journal of Contemporary History, http://www.jstor.org/stable/260199

Painter, Borden W (1990) Renzo De Felice and the Historiography of Italian Fascism, The American Historical Review, http://www.jstor.org/stable/2163756

As for the issue on the PS: i would argue that despite policy wording, careful use of PS can be used and have been used in articles that have been promoted to GA and FA status. However, it has to be with extreme care. Since i do not know much on this war, if - as Cplakidas has argued - historians have noted that these divisions surrendered to the Germans before the Italian arrival, then the PS should not be used as an 'overwrite'.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Renzo De Felice has been described as a fascist apologist. He is therefore a controversial historian who cannot be used in this article for controversial claims. I agree with you that primary sources should not be used to support controversial claims which contradict reports from reliable secondary sources. Also the newspaper reports used in the latest edit-war by the OP contain recycled reports from Italian wartime newspapers which were under the control of the fascists. Such reports cannot be used to support controversial claims because they obviously lack neutrality. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

@EnigmaMcmxc:@100menonmars: I don't really have an opinion regarding De Felice. If his work can be considered well-researched, and as long as no ideological statements are made, then I'm content to have it, until something better comes along. I do have a problem with using wartime primary sources without examination. E.g. Ciano's diary declarations are useful as a background to Italian policy decisions, being original documents, but they are worthless as an assessment of the conflict following its end, since Ciano was not exactly a disinterested party in trying to present it as a triumph. Ditto for the statement that the Italians captured four Greek divisions: it may well be that the Italians did take prisoners from these divisions (briefly, for the Greek army was demobilized and never interned in POW camps), but under no circumstances should this be phrased as to imply that the divisions were "captured" in battle, as is the obvious reading of the statement in question, when the Greek army had ceased to exist as a fighting force two days previously. I have sympathy with the Italians taking umbrage at the over-simplified stereotyped image of a clownish Italian army, but resorting to verbatim, uncritical reproduction of wartime propaganda (or, as AnnalesSchool has done in earlier discussions, seeking to exculpate Italy from anything because the Germans were far worse) is certainly not the way to correct this. Constantine ✍ 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Dr K, from what i have read and quoted above i feel you are writing off the guy despite the fact that quite a number of his peers believe his work to be of value and his critics to be more politically motivated than anything else (that may be an over generalization, but it would seem that labeling him fascist apologist is also). I would argue (echoing Cplakidas), solely based off my research this morning, that his work should be used in a manner one would use AJP Taylor (outside of university level study on the subject that is): allowing uncontroversial comments to be used. If he is stating simple facts (x happened, y happened etc) than it is fine. When it comes to analysis (which it is not being used for here), it should be bolstered with his critics concern (in such a way as any debate on Fritz Fischer should be countered by the comments of likes of Gerhard Ritter). That brings us back to the first question: does the source say the Italians tied down the Greeks in question? Something i dont think has been addressed (as it seems the "capture" of the four Greek divisions is a separate issue), is this factual? Do other sources support this? More importantly, is it actually important to understand the subject?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a clarification: I did not label him a fascist apologist; his article quotes his critics describing him that way. Also I did not write him off. I said he is a controversial historian, which he is, and any controversial statements by him should not be accepted at face value, without external corroboration of his claims. Non-controversial statements by him are ok to be included in the article, so I agree with you when you say that "allowing uncontroversial comments to be used" is ok. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

EnigmaMcmxc criticism of the Greek military or political decision to allow the Italians to tie the bulk of the Greek forces in Albania not only comes from Lieutenant-General Henry Maitland Wilson in the book written by Renzo De Felice, but also is supported by Allied official sources at the time and historian Samuel W. Mitcham who wrote:

In anticipation of the German attack, the British and some Greeks urged a withdrawal of the army of Epirus to spare badly needed troops and equipment to repel the Germans. However, national sentiment forbade the abandonment of such hard-won positions. The mentality that retreat in the face of the Italians would be disgraceful and overriding military logic caused them to ignore the British warning. Therefore, 15 divisions, the bulk of the Greek army, were left deep in Albania as German forces approached.derided this reluctance as "the fetishistic doctrine that not a yard of ground should be yielded to the Italians"; only six of the 21 Greek divisions were left to oppose the German attack. As a result of their poor deployment, the Greeks opposed the Italians with 14 divisions. They only had seven week divisions left to oppose the German Army, which was the best in the world at that time. In additions, the Greek Air Force had been in combat for months and had suffered such heavy losses on the Albanian Front that it was virtually nonoperational by April 1941. (The Rise of the Wehrmacht: Vol. 1, Samuel W. Mitcham, p.394, ABC-CLIO, 2008)

I will now back up De Felice as the source with Mitcham, to support the claim the Greeks allowed their forces to be tied down in Albania instead of properly reinforcing the Metaxas Line from where the German invasion was expected and came from.

I've also had to change back the heading of this discussion from This wikipedia page to This wikipedia page has been hijacked by Δρ.Κ, to underline the significance of getting more balance and improving the wikipedia page to do with the Greco-Italian War.

--100menonmars (talk) 21:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

You will not restore this clueless personal attack against me per WP:NPA. Read well the policy of no personal attacks as well as WP:CIVIL and behave accordingly. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I wonder now why a new section "Battle of Crete" has shown up.Alexikoua (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed that. I think it is irrelevant to this article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:25, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like only to point out that Renzo De Felice (NOT De Felio) is now (2015) considered the most important Italian historian of Fascism and the most important biographer of Mussolini worldwide, period. He has been seen as controversial for some years only because of political reasons, since he was an ex communist who had the guts (in the seventies one should have physical courage to do that) to challenge the communist hegemony in the Italian culture, studying fascism and Mussolini scientifically and not repeating ideological mantras. Describing him as a Fascist or a Fascist apologist was typical of the communist tactic of discrediting people which did not have the same opinion as them. His work is characterised by the systematic use of primary italian sources (he has been sometime accused of having overused them :-)), which often he discovered personally digging in the ACS (the huge italian Archivio Centrale dello Stato in Rome EUR). The main problem with his work is that his masterpiece, the (unfortunately unfinished) biography of Mussolini, has never been translated because of its size (7,000 pages). But reading it, the judgement which comes out about Mussolini and Fascism is without appeal.

About the removal of Ciano's citation I agree with Costantine: it is a self-consolatory sentence by a Fascist which was one of the main responsibles of the Italian disaster and, above all, should be read in his context. Alex2006 (talk) 09:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that it is only the communists that think that he has a pro-fascist POV. This Jstor paper comments "Jan 8, 1989 - RENZO DE FELICE occupies a central and controversial position in the contemporary study of Italian fascism. Some historians hail his voluminous biography of Benito Mussolini, others think it looks suspiciously like a monument to the Duce". And this is only after a cursory look at Google. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:20, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Kinda missed Painter's argument that the historian and his work was mired in controversy because of the political culture, not soley because of his viewpoints. Not to mention, by the end of the essay Painter argues that his works are important and cannot simply be ignored (not necessarily an argument for inclusion in a wiki article, however). A casual look shows it is more complicated than lets not use him because some think he is a fascist or fascist leaning (despite his own socialist views).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't miss anything and I repeat once more: Given his acknowledged controversial status we have to be careful in using him and we should examine his usage carefully in controversial matters. Again, please do not assume that I do not want to use this source under any circumstances. I simply want to use caution when using it, especially in controversial issues. Is this clear enough? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Extremely clear. I would like to say, I completely agree with the notion that when it comes to controversial sources they need to be used carefully (although, for the moment, I think the non-wiki controversy surrounding this source is more complicated that npov). I think this brings us nicely to the remaining point: was what was inserted into the article, attributed to this source, controversial?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't that clear? I think I covered this in my edit-summaries. You may disagree with me, but I can't see how you didn't notice my edit-summary comments. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Not really. Your edit-summaries are what made me look up Renzo De Felice and provide a summary of several historians opinion on him and his work. Hence why i stated earlier on that your comments in regards to work seemed harsh.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what was unclear about my edit-summaries. They were not that many and, in one of them, I specifically mentioned the passage that in my opinion was POV and therefore De Felice should not have been used to support it. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

As argued by more than one here, De Felice is not exactly off limits. So what exactly was POV about the statement that was added: "tied down"? Should this be broke down further? On 9 May, did Ciano visit Italian troops? If so, the troops he visited, had they "tied down" Greek forces? Should we also ask, since the whole paragraph has since been removed, what is wrong - reliable source wise - with Mitcham? Despite the colorful language, was he factual?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

First, "tied down" is unclear, POV and unencyclopedic. Given these attributes, and given that De Felice was used to support it, it was prudent to seek further clarification about the specific meaning of "tying down" the Greek army. If controversial and unclear terms are used, supported by controversial sources, and when context is unclear or absent, it is good practice to challenge such terms. As far as Ciano's predictably triumphalist pronouncements, they may have served their purpose at the time to boost Ciano's position in the fascist pecking order, but I don't think they add any value to the article in terms of imparting any real information, other than a sense of Ciano's self-aggrandisement. I'm not sure about what Mitcham was used for, so I can't comment about that. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't clear that the bulk of the Greek army was fighting the Italians in the Albanian frontier? If it made any difference in the end is a totally different matter. Uspzor (talk) 02:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I will check today what De Felice says at pg. 125 of his work. About Ciano's statements, I would like to point out that they come from his diary, so they were meant to remain private at least until his retirement from politics. About De Felice and his impact on modern storiography on Fascism one can usefully read these books about him and his work: among the authors, Emilio Gentile and Paolo Simoncelli are among the most important contemporary Italian historians. Of course he is controversial, but only because as historian he was a revolutionary, and in his work he always kept separated his moral judgement about Fascism from his research. Among others he rebuted the (italian communist) legend that Fascism had been an external body landed from outer space to oppress poor innocent italian people, introducing the notion of consenso, the consensus that millions of italians gave to the regime until the disasters of WWII (and in this respect the war against Greece was the happening which opened the eyes to many Italians, which became antifascist on the Albanian front). Alex2006 (talk) 07:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

At page 125 there is part of the discussion about the French-Italian armistice of june 1940: the pages about the Greco-Italian war are much more forward. Now, either the page number is wrong, or the bound edition was used for the reference, but also in that case p. 125 cannot be right. Alex2006 (talk) 07:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Operation Barbarossa was not delayed by the Italo-Greek war nor did it lead to its ultimate failure.

I think it's time to admit that the Italo-Greek war did not delay nor led to the failure of Operation Barbarossa. Instead, it is well known that the wet May weather, serious faults in logistics and underestimation of their Russian opponent, were the prime causes. I am sorry that it may hurt the nationalistic feelings of the Greeks, but frankly, while many patriotic Greeks may want to believe that they singlehandedly altered the course of the war, the reality is that for the Germans, the Greek theater was simply an annoying side-show. Throughout much of the war, Greece was a bit of a backwater. The real battles were happening on the Russian steppe, in North Africa and Normandy. AnnalesSchool (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Another pro-Italian attempt

The specific edit [[1]] is the epitomy of pov, "the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Pagagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance.". Not to mention that its completely out of the context of the primavera offensive, which, by the way, was another clear Greek victory. ("in the end the Tepelene offensive was succesfuully repulsed by the Greeks").Alexikoua (talk) 10:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

For instance the claim that the Greek side was "running low on reserves of men and war material." is a result of the fact that "by early March German intentions have became increasingly apparent. The danger of the German thrust... was serious ". I'm afraid that the editor who's is eager to add about the Greek weakness intentionally (and systematically) ignores the German threat in the Balkan theatre of operations in order to overemphasize the supposed Italian military supremacy. Thus, I won't object to present the full picture on each paragraph.Alexikoua (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled why you would object to my relevant and interesting edits on the logistical problems the Greek Army of the Epirus faced. The reliability is not an issue as they are quotes taken from Craig Stockings and Hancock's "Swastika over the Acropolis". So how can it possibly be a POV issue?? It adds to the article, doesn't subtract from it, and is perfectly relevant because it reveals the state of the Greek Army on the Albanian front.

The section deals with the Tepelene offensive that commenced on the 10th March. Is there another Offensive I don't know about? The Telepene offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, but one can hardly call it a "victory" for the Greeks, if by "victory" you mean that the boxer getting the heavy blows from his opponent is "still standing"?

I really don't understand what your objections are Alexikoua. Can you please explain them more clearly and perhaps we can reach a consensus of sorts? Do you want me to include something about the German threat in the rear?

You can't just revert edits without a good reason Alexkiou and then seek a compromise if you have a valid point.AnnalesSchool (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It appears you have a quite weird interpratation of the facts (apart from cherry picking), since the Primavera offensive, as the Tepelene offensive is widely known, was a clear Italian defeat. As for the supposed Italian gains as you claim: The Italian spring offensive, which started on 9 March, made no headway, and the Greeks were able to hold their territorial gains until Germany entered the conflict".Alexikoua (talk) 14:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Something that may appear quite informative, is the conclusion drawn by Musolini himself about the so-called Italian victory you claim: zero.Alexikoua (talk) 14:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

But Alexikoua, you really aren't making much sense. The two quotes above have nothing to do with whether the Tepelene offensive was a defeat or not. Stockings and Hancock are merely stating that while the Tepelene offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, they (and not me!) were only pointing out that "the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Papagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance." How on earth could you even object to this mild and matter of fact quote from Stockings and Hancock, I don't know. And the Greeks were running out of their reserve of men and materials, and that the Italian Army continued to pose: "an existential threat".

What in heaven's name are you actually objecting to? The truth?AnnalesSchool (talk) 14:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Their very interesting links to authors Alexikoua, but hardly relevant. I mean, you have your authors who make certain claims, and I have my authors who make certain claims that either agree or conflict. Isn't this what Wikipedia is all about, providing a cross section of views and debate? Why would your references over-ride my references? Let's have both!AnnalesSchool (talk) 14:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, to be precise you are cherry picking your own authors, have you ever reliazed that "by early March German intentions have became increasingly apparent. The danger of the German thrust from the Bulgarian border was serious"? Off course not, but Stockings and Hancock have realized it very well and the quote is from the same paragraph you are eager to add (2-3 lines below). Thus, to sum up, the problems of the Greek general stuff were due to the strong German presence in the Bulgarian Greek border in early March. Did you ever realized that Germans run the show? I doubt, but your favorite authors are very clear on that, in addition to a mountain a WWII bibliograpgy as presented. Italy did nothing more than 'zero', as Musolini admitted. You don't believe that zero means victory right? On the contrary it was defeat and humiliation of Musolini's regime.Alexikoua (talk) 16:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexioua, you are starting to sound like a revolving record and getting more and more desperate. One author you quoted states that the Italians achieved "zero" but while the Italians failed to push back the Greeks in the Tepelene offensive, Dr Stockings and Dr Hancock are merely stating that while the Italian offensive failed to dislodge the Greeks, the Greeks suffered 5000 casualties and were running low on reserves of manpower and munitions. Here is what Stockings maintained: "Despite the fact that the Greeks held off the Telepene push, from mid-March it was clear to Papagos that there were not enough Greek troops to hold against both the Italians and a potential German thrust on the Bulgarian front." (p.78). Why is this so hard to understand and accept? Please put aside your strident Greek nationalism and start to accept reality and historical truth for a change.AnnalesSchool (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually all accounts agree that the offensive was a failure. It appears you are on a clear agenda. To say it simple, if an attack was a disaster then the victory goes to the other side. By the way it's the first time you mention the Germans, it's a big step since you tried to hide the German intervention [[2]]. The Greek army was out of troops due to the German intervention, not because of the (pathetic) Italian performance.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Stockings and Hancock

According to Stockings and Hancock, by the first week of March, "the General Greek staff were facing a number of serious problems." Not only was the conflict intensifying with the Italians, but they were running low on reserves of men and war material. The Italians presented what they called, an "existential threat" that continued to pin down the bulk of the Greek Army

However, the Greeks were so hard pressed to hold the line against this latest Italian onslaught that General Pagagos "decided not to launch any further large-scale operations in Albania without Yugoslav assistance."

What exactly is wrong with the above? Can you explain your objections more clearly Alexikoua and propose some sort of solution?AnnalesSchool (talk) 22:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Your repeated attempts to try and spin this article into some sort of "victory" for the Italians run counter to the literature on the subject and are highly tendentious. Launching into personal attacks against other editors is the final straw. Further disruption will be dealt with here. Athenean (talk) 19:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I keep having to repeat myself - while not a great victory, it was certainly not an "abject" defeat either. It was a qualified and compromised "victory". But it certainly wasn't the great defeat that is is made out to be. And by the way, when editors launch personal attacks against me, can I come to you to lodge a complaint, Athenean?

One has to maintain neutrality and impartiality here because it also works both ways you know.AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

References

Edit-warring POV material into the article.

Three times now POV material about the logistical problems of the Greek army has been inserted into the article. The edit starts with the conjunction "However" which is a sure sign of WP:SYNTH and is also POV and WP:UNDUE. It is POV because it seeks to diminish the size of the Greek victory during the Primavera offensive by using synthesis and conjunctions like "however" which does not exist in the sources quoted. For instance another way to add this materrial would have been "Despite the logistics problems the Greek army faced it still was able to achieve a decisive victory against the Italians". But that too would have been POV and SYNTH since no source alone makes these connections. Therefore the editor who is trying to diminish the victory of the Greek army by edit-warring his/her SYNTH into the article should discuss how this material should be inserted into the article without using his SYNTHesis and POV. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:32, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. This editor is by now deep into WP:TEND territory. Athenean (talk) 22:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

A good way to find out what people find problematic about your edits is to ask, in an open and non-confrontational way. If an edit is rejected, try something along the lines of:

According to {citation of source}, the following is the case: {statement from source}. You have disputed its addition. How do you think we should express this assertion?https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:BRINKAnnalesSchool (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I am ready and willing to hear how you think "we should express this assertion?" I am ready and willing to cooperate at all times.AnnalesSchool (talk) 23:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Fellas fellas, calm down. Dr K and Athenean, I am merely trying to bring back a semblance of balance within this article. This article has already been tagged: "This article may be unbalanced towards certain viewpoints. Please improve the article by adding information on neglected viewpoints, or discuss the issue on the talk page. (August 2014)".

I am not trying to diminish any great Greek "victory" here. I am only drawing the reader's attention to the fact that even though the Greek Army was "victorious" in repelling the Italian Primavera Offensive, it did so at some cost, as Stockings and Hanson have pointed out to their credit.

However, personally I think it is rather ludicrous to describe repelling an offensive as a "great victory" by the other side. It seems that every time the Greek army withstands a major (or even a minor) assault, it is hailed as a "great victory"! The greatest ever in the history of the war! But that's just my personal opinion.

The material I added was fully referenced to Stockings and Hanson, so they are not my words or opinion, but the balanced and scholarly opinion of professional historians. Why shoot the messenger?

All views and counter-views should be included in Wiki articles. You are acting like a heavy-handed censor. What have you to fear? That the "great victory" of withstanding the Italian Telepene Offensive will be slightly tarnished? Are you really that insecure?

Well, I am open to suggestions. Apart from merely reverting or deleting fully referenced and relevant material Dr K because you simply don't like it as it might detract from the "great victory" of the Greeks, let us work together on how we can synthesize the material and weave it into the article. AnnalesSchool (talk) 23:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I am open to suggestions. Apart from merely reverting or deleting fully referenced and relevant material Dr K because you simply don't like it as it might detract from the "great victory" of the Greeks, ... Leave the silly accusations and don't try to attack my motives by disingenuous and sloppy comments while completely bypassing my substantive comments as a mere case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. That's either a low blow or an inability on your part to understand what I wrote. Fellas fellas, calm down. Dr K and Athenean...: Another sloppy attack designed to make it look as if your perceived opponents are not calm. These sloppy attacks are the biggest sign that your arguments are poor. Now read my reply to you calmly and seriously and come up with a serious answer without silly or sloppy attacks or both and address my well-made points one by one and using quotes so that I am sure you read them. Start first with your use of the conjunction "however" and explain if the conjunction is in the citation or it is simply your WP:SYNTH invention. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Second that. Annales, your reply consists of trolling, sarcasm ("great Greek victory"), and condescension ("calm down"). If you want to be taken seriously around here, you would be well advised to tone those down, and instead address the points raised by Dr. K. Athenean (talk) 01:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a problem at all and have to disagree with the points you have raised. No victory comes without a cost, and that cost was spelt out by Stockings and Hancock. The quotes I used came from the same chapetr and pages of Stockings, was connected to the Primavera Offensive, because Stockings wrote this: One important aspect of the telepene offensive of early March, masked to some degree by the fact that it was defeated - was what it revealed of the condition of the Greek Army." (p.81)

So I am not trying to deny or tarnish the "great Greek victory" of all time! By all means, let's maintain and spell out clearly that it was the greatest of great Greek victories! It is simply that Stockings and Co are pointing out that while the Greeks had a "great and glorious victory", it revealed or masked some weaknesses in the "condition" of the Greek Army. I see no conflict here. The sources are reliable and referenced, and they have to do with the subject at hand, the Telepene offensive, and its consequences to the "condition of the Greek Army". Again I do not wish in any way to "tarnish" the great and magnificent victory of the Greeks - simply point out what Stockings is pointing out, that the "great victory" came with a certain cost to the Greek Army.

So, perhaps we can reach a consensus here and change the wording to include the above phrase by Stockings so that the reader is absolutely clear that it was and will forever be the "great victory" of the Greeks over the Italians, but perhaps explain to the reader that this greatest of great victories did come with a certain cost to the greatest army in the world, which as we all know, is the Greek Army.AnnalesSchool (talk) 15:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

What are you hoping to achieve by taking a sarcastic tone? Nick-D (talk) 03:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I just want to make it clear that my insert on the "condition of the Greek Army" after the Telepene Offensive will not in any way, tarnish the great reputation of the greatest victory in the war. That's all. So if there are no objections, I will proceed to insert the original edit with the one above so that the reader is absolutely clear that the victory was not in any way compromised by the depletion of men (5000 dead Greeks) and artillery resources (one month supplies left)AnnalesSchool (talk) 09:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

So now you are swinging from silly and sloppy personal attacks to silly and sloppy exhibits of crass sarcasm. Until you learn to modulate yourself sufficiently well to stop exhibiting this behaviour and to start abiding by the policies of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:NOTFORUM, etc. etc. don't expect me to reply to your intemperate and AGF-defying tantrums. You can still try to modulate yourself sufficiently to reply to the concerns I raised above in a civil manner. Better still, you can demonstrate your goood faith by erasing your WP:NOTFORUM incivilities that you attempted to subject us to. Let me put this in simple terms to you: Until you sober-up and discuss the issues posed to you in an appropriate and civil manner without abuse and sarcasm your edit as proposed is unbalanced, WP:UNDUE and WP:SYNTH and it is not going into the article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

By starting off like this: According to Stockings and Hancock, "one important aspect of the Telepene offensive of early March, masked to some degree by the fact that it was defeated - was what it revealed of the condition of the Greek Army." This will avoid any synthesis or POV issues. It can be placed in the original section, or in consequences. My sarcasm was to get the message through, which it achieved. AnnalesSchool (talk) 13:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

My sarcasm was to get the message through, which it achieved. True. But I am afraid the message you are referring to is the wrong kind of message about you. The only message that "got through" is that you are incapable of civil discourse and your ability is limited to silly and sloppy personal attacks followed by swings to silly, sloppy and utterly crass sarcasm. And you still have not retracted your ridiculous attacks as I asked you to. You have to realise that you are using abuse as one of your techniques for discussion. Stop it. Consider this your final warning. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr K, you must put a stop to this edit warring. If my last reasonable suggestion on how we might insert the reference from Stockings and hancock into the article is not accepted and you become totally unreasonable, then there is no choice but to arbitrate this.AnnalesSchool (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

(unindent) By all means, feel free to "Arbitrate" to your heart's content. A word of warning though, your sarcasm, anger and aggression will be apparent to all involved and may end up costing you dearly. By the way, could you please learn to properly indent your comments? Poorly indented comments make it harder for others to follow the discussion and are also one of the hallmarks of tendentious editors. Athenean (talk) 17:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr K, you must put a stop to this edit warring. Again, you got things in reverse: You are the one who is edit-warring substandard and policy-violating edits into the article. Your latest offering is full of grammatical mistakes and it is still grossly WP:UNDUE. Apart from its elementary grammatical mistakes your edit: "one important aspect of the Telepene offensive of early March, masked to some degree by the fact that it was defeated - was what it revealed of the condition of the Greek Army." unduly emphasises minor points in what was an epic failure of the Italian fascist war machine and its floundering leader who personally witnessed and admitted this epic failure of his country, standing helpless at the top of a hill watching the routing of his army like a voyeur in the impotent state of not being able to do anything about it. Why concentrate on these minor points about an army who successfully withstood this onslaught by the Italians and not concentrate on the reasons for this abject failure of the Italian fascist war machine and its impotent leader? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Annales.: A couple of months ago you took the initiative to manipulate the very same book. Let me remind you that you disagreed that this was Greek victory one can hardly call it a "victory" for the Greeks. Thus, I assume that's a big step for you to finally admit that it's a 'great Greek victory', but this childish recycling of the same arguments turns to be disruptive. As the source you provided the only fact that made the situation dificult for the Greek army was the German presence in the Bulgarian border and not the entirely pathetic Italian perfomance which you itentionally try to neglect.Alexikoua (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

You two are off your rocker! You are both nuts! I suggest you visit www.comandosupremo.com/. Your article is mentioned there and there may be a few comments about you two pretty soon.AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I've just taken it to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:41, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

CE

Took out lots of inferior citations and much of the narrative they supported in favour of books and straightforward narrative. Much of the remaining material is short of citations from reliable sources and would benefit from a review from an aficionado. Apologies in advance if I've been too severe.Keith-264 (talk) 21:41, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Title

Why does Greco-Italian come first when the Italians started it?Keith-264 (talk) 16:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No ideas. Google Books shows 798 results for Italian-Greek War, 4,960 results for Italo-Greek War, and 1,120 results for Greco-Italian War.

JSTOR has 6, 49, and 11 results, respectfully.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Some problems with this article

While Keith did a good job cleaning the article up a little, I am afraid that it really needs a heavy broom rather than a light brush and pan.

I've identified and tagged several statements and passages that I believe suffer from undue weight, POV statement, lack of citation and a lack of varied citations. There seems to be a great reliance on a narrow range of authors such as Keegan, Hershaw and Mazower. I have only tagged the most obvious ones, but I could have tagged at least double that number, but that may have been too much for some editors to handle.

This articles is unduly biased in favor of the Greeks while at the same time, it does its best to denigrate the Italian effort by making it appear that whatever concessions the Italians received was at the behest and "generosity" of the Germans.

Something needs to be done about this article, but I am unsure how to proceed. I am open to suggestions and willing to cooperate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.0.27.159 (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

The above anon editor, possible AnnalesSchool sock, has highlighted the following areas they believe needs to be discussed: diff. Discussion seems preferable to tagging half the article and further edit-warring.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:28, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

It does need a lot of work, which is why I've backed off, I'm trying to find time to finish the material in my sandboxes.Keith-264 (talk) 16:40, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Having looked at the recent edits and reverts I'm reminded of the impression I got when looking through it that a lot of the narrative is rather gossipy and anecdotal from sources which infer motives rather than describe events. I'd get rid of the lot but that's too big a task for this shrinking violet.Keith-264 (talk) 16:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

But someone's gotto dooo it! Shovel it upp and mooove it! (Line from the Two Ronnies) Come on Keith. We know you can! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.0.27.159 (talk) 07:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

And "we" is?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

As Keith said so eloquently, those who like their history clean without a lot of the narrative that is rather gossipy and anecdotal from sources which infer motives rather than describe events. 'We" Enigma are far more numerous than you think.90.0.27.159 (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers...? A laconic description of events and then a separate explanation in the analysis which alludes to the politico-strategic level of warfare is what I favour, rather than "Mussolini was impatient...." but this isn't an endorsement of Italian chauvinism. Keith-264 (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Concur Keith! From the few analytical sources I have seen on the subject, I expect the anon to turn on you at some point. Hence the question of who "we" are. The vast majority of people want a non-bias look at a subject. I hope I am wrong, but I suspect the anon is AnnalesSchool and despite the rhetoric their actions speak louder: as soon as well sourced comments from reputable historians are inserted that highlight there may have been problems, the flaming will come. Hence who are "we": possible useful editors aiming to help, or bias editors biding thier time.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The IP is indeed AnnalesSchool [3]. In addition to his obsession with this article, the other article he was obsessed with was North African Campaign. He has a clear agenda and should be ignored. Athenean (talk) 18:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Why do you think I am AnnalesSchool? Who or what is he? You may refer to me as "The Master"! Keith, you have already pointed out that with this article, the Italo-Greek war, "a lot of the narrative is rather gossipy and anecdotal from sources which infer motives rather than describe events. I'd get rid of the lot but that's too big a task for this shrinking violet". Don't be a shrinking violet Keith! Do the right thing! Don't let them bully you my friend.90.0.27.159 (talk) 19:34, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Please put your energies into editing and citing the article, rather than gossipy and anecdotal remarks on the talk page.Keith-264 (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, I'll take your advice Keith-264. There are a few things I'd like to edit and cite on this article. Thanks and regards. (The Master)90.0.27.159 (talk) 21:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Scope

Reading through a few sources on the conflict, nothing in-depth, it has made me think that the article may need to be truncated. From my limited reading on the subject, it appears that the Italian-Greco conflict fits nearly into two phases: the first being between just the Greeks and Italians, and the second following major intervention by the British Commonwealth and the Germans. The Battle of Greece article already covers the latter and details the Italian-Greek fighting in Albania that occurred during the same time period as the second phase of fighting, whereas this article attempts to cover everything. I would argue that this article stop short of covering the entire battle by restructuring the German Intervention section into an overview of the Battle of Greece article, and focusing the aftermath section on the purely Italian-Greek fighting. Thoughts?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Good ideaKeith-264 (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The article is about war itself, not about one phase or another. But yes, the article need a major reorganization anyway. Fabrizor (talk) 02:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree. However, the only reservation I have is that the "second phrase" not leave out or drop the Italians altogether. I tend to agree about the aftermath section focusing on the purely Italian-Greek fighting with the result that due to German intervention and a combined offensive, the Italians were finally able to move forward as the Greeks had to withdraw troops to counter the German threat of encirclement. It should also be made clear to the reader that the Greco-Italian (Italian-Greek war?) resulted in a final victory for the Italians albeit with help from the timely German intervention that broke the stalemate. We need to stop all this nonsense about the "Greeks defeating the Italians" when it is clearly evident that they ended up with two-thirds of Greece and paraded through the streets of Athens alongside their German allies all the way to the Acropolis.( The Master) 90.0.27.159 (talk) 12:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Come off it babe, scavenging scraps from Germany is not victory (unless you have a reliable source, that is).Keith-264 (talk) 13:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

You mean something like the scraps the British got from the Americans and Russians then? (The Master) 92.133.150.70 (talk) 18:14, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Keith, I'm a middle-aged man. If you are refering to me as "babe", what should I call to you: "grandpa"?

What reliable sources do I have for calling the Greco-Italian war as a victory for the Italians? Well let's see:

a) the official surrender of the Greek Army to the Italians on 23rd April, 1941. b) the Italian parade march through Athens c) two thirds of Greece occupied by the Italians.

Doesn't exactly sound like a "defeat" to me. So if it wasn't a victory, and it wasn't a defeat, then what exactly was it?

I can agree that the victory for the Italians came at a great cost and was a qualified victory and was achieved with the intervention of the Germans, but weren't several "victories" of the British a direct result of American support, backing and even, military intervention?

To say that the Greeks were "victorious" is really stretching the concept of victory to new heights. To say that the Italians lost or were defeated, is just as inaccurate. So what exactly was it? Defeat or victory, or a bit of both. Perhaps one can argue that the Italians "technically" won, but then go on to qualify it by adding, "Yes, they won, but at the cost of A, B and C. Certainly the North African campaign was a loss for the Italians and can rightly be attributed to the Greco-Italian war. Loss of prestige, yes; strains on the Axis alliance, yes; these were all legitimate costs for Italy's very expensive "victory" against Greece. (the Master)92.133.150.70 (talk) 21:20, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

(I can't believe I am arguing with you again, but...) You do know that there is a term for "very expensive victory", i.e. "Pyrrhic victory", and that the only thing separating it from defeat is being left in possession of the field, while having lost everything of consequence? But by this criterion the Greco-Italian War was a "Pyrrhic victory" not for the Italians, but for the Greeks, who focused and depleted their entire strength there... You yourself let slip that the Germans "broke the stalemate", and it was a stalemate in which, by any consideration of it, the Greeks were "victorious" as they had repelled an invasion and found themselves deep in enemy territory. And, for the n-th time, the Albanian front essentially lost any importance the moment the Germans intervened. It became a sideshow and the decisive events, which influenced developments in this front as well, happened elsewhere. Your POV in essence confuses the outcome of an entire campaign with one phase or theatre of it; it is like arguing that the Battle of Caporetto was an Italian victory because Italy was ultimately one of the victor powers of World War I, or that the Battle of Arnhem was an Allied victory because the Allies won in the end and occupied Germany... Constantine ✍ 21:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Constantine, one can lose many battles and win a war and conversely one can win many battles but lose the war.The invading Italian army was never defeated by the Greeks. Sure it was pushed back into Albania but so what. Whether the fighting takes place on Greek soil or Albanian soil is of no great significance. You know there is a reason why it was called a "World War" because it was fought in many lands. What is significant however, is that the Italians never gave up. The Greco-Italian war simply did NOT end, even if the Germans had entered Greece. The fact that the Germans entered Greece helped the Italians, but it did not mean that the Italians gave up and went home. If General Tsolakoglou did not agree to surrender to the Italians, the Italians would simply have kept on fighting and that would have been a disaster for the Greeks because the Italians were quite prepared to slaughter as many Greeks as they could lay their hands on if the Greeks did not surrender and surrender quickly.

You simply cannot avoid the fact that the Greeks DID OFFICIALLY SURRENDER to the Italians. You may not like it, but it is a fact of history you can try to sweep under the carpet, but it will keep reappearing. The Greeks simply could not defeat the Italians, try as they could. Greece had hopes that Yugoslavia would come to its aid, but it was swiftly neutralized by both the Italians and the Germans in a crushing defeat that surprised everyone.

So did the Italians defeat the Greeks; or did the Greeks defeat the Italians? Well, technically and strictly, according to the surrender and armistice document, the Italians defeated the Greeks. It is in black and white and as plain as paper. However, I would go along that it was a compromised victory; a qualified victory for all sorts of valid reasons; but a victory nonetheless.

Actually just as a sideline, one could argue convincingly that even though the British may have "won the war" (we beat 'em, hurrah!), they in fact lost the most. Almost as soon as the war ended, they lost one colony after another; the country was virtually bankrupt (they only paid the last war loan to the US a few years ago); Germany became economically ascendant while the UK economy slid downwards; and once they lost Suez and Malta, the Italian Navy was free to go where it pleased. Mussolini's complaint about Italy being trapped in a Mediterranean prison no longer applied. So who really won the war?? (The Master) 90.0.206.82 (talk) 00:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I suppose by your own twisted logic, the British won - alone - the Second World War considering the Germans unconditionally surrendered to Field Marshal Montgomery. Leaving out context is a wonderful thing! Signed a tired editor who is fed up at the lack of secondary sources being used to back up any opinion despite the fact they have been repeatedly asked over months, and for the convenience of "the master" who refuses to admit who he really is, the lack of ability to abide by the agreement made further up the page to "put [their] energies into editing and citing the article, rather than gossipy and anecdotal remarks on the talk page".165.166.215.220 (talk) 01:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

It is a nice touch that you talk about neglecting context, then pluck an irrelevant example and accuse me of espousing it. No sir, if I'd make an argument along these lines, it would be the opposite: it would be to point out that Britain had failed against Germany by 1940/41. That it was the entry into the war of the Soviets and of the US that tipped the balance, and that Britain's credit lies in holding out for so long, and riding to victory on the strength of Soviet sacrifices and US money and supplies. Sound familiar? Did you bother to read and think over anything I wrote above? Did Italy surrender after Caporetto? No. Did Britain surrender after the fall of France? No. Did they in the end win the war? Yes. Did they win alone or at least chiefly through their own efforts? No. Were these battles victories for them? No. Did Italy win in the Balkans campaign? Yes, no-one disputes this. How? Because the Germans attacked. Without the Germans, who knows what might have happened? I don't know, you don't know. At the point things stood before this new factor appeared, however, it is pretty clear who had failed and who had not. If an armistice had been called on 6 April, we wouldn't be discussing things here. And speaking of context, where is the context that the front in Albania began to move only after the Germans attacked and threatened to cut off the Greeks? Where is the context that the five new divisions raised in early 1941 by Greece went to confront the looming German threat, and not to Albania? Where is the context that the Greek-Yugoslav attack in Albania was derailed because of the German advance? I could go on, but it is pointless. Thanks for half-admitting who you are, though. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 06:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

1) That appears to include several tried and tested phrases of AnnalesSchool.

2) As highlighted, the Battle of Greece already covers the Italian involvement in the second phase of fighting and keeps it in perspective.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:57, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I think a main article link and paragraph under Subsequent operations should be enough.Keith-264 (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Anything will be better than its current form. Go for it!92.133.150.70 (talk) 18:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree that trimming the section about the German invasion is necessary, without doubt. This is the subject of another article.Alexikoua (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Question

"Their forces consisted of four divisions, two of them armoured"

Does anyone have access to the source that makes this claim about the British expitionary force? Only one armoured brigade was dispatched (the rest of the 2nd Armoured Division was sent to Egypt). If I am not mistaken, wasn't only two divisions dispatched in total?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

[4]Keith-264 (talk) 17:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Added a bit from Raugh with citation.Keith-264 (talk) 08:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Background

Italian imperialism

Main article: Imperial Italy (fascist)

Ambitions of Fascist Italy in Europe in 1936.

In the late 1920s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini said that Italy needed Spazio vitale, an outlet for its surplus population and that it would be in the best interests of other countries to aid in this expansion. The regime wanted hegemony in the Mediterranean–Danubian–Balkan region and Mussolini imagined the conquest "of an empire stretching from the Strait of Gibraltar to the Strait of Hormuz". There were designs for a protectorate over Albania and for the annexation of Dalmatia and economic and military control of Yugoslavia and Greece. The regime also sought to establish protectorates over Austria, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria, which lay on the periphery of an Italian European sphere of influence.

In 1935, Italy began the Second Italo-Ethiopian War to expand the empire; a more aggressive Italian foreign policy which "exposed [the] vulnerabilities" of the British and French and created an opportunity for the Fascist regime needed to realize its imperial goals. In 1936, the Spanish Civil War began and Italy made a military contribution so vast that it played a decisive role in the victory of the rebel forces of Francisco Franco. "A full-scale external war" was fought for Spanish subservience to the Italian Empire, to place Italy on a war footing and create "a warrior culture".

In September 1938, the Italian army had made plans to invade Albania, which began on 7 April and in three days had occupied most of the country. Albania was a territory that Italy could acquire for "living space to ease its overpopulation" as well as a foothold for expansion in the Balkans. In 1940, Mussolini invaded of France and Egypt and a plan to invade Yugoslavia was postponed, due to German opposition and lack of Italian army transport.

The map is very confusing. The colors are too similar and the legend is too small to tell what colors correspond to what. The terms used are also confusing and too similar to one another. Athenean (talk) 05:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Greco–Italian relations

Italy had occupied the predominantly Greek-inhabited Dodecanese Islands in the Aegean Sea since the Italo-Turkish War of 1912 and Italy reneged on the 1919 Venizelos–Tittoni accords to return them. Clashes occurred during the occupation of Anatolia. In 1923, Mussolini used the Corfu incident (the murder of an Italian general on the Greco-Albanian border) to bombard and occupy Corfu, the most important of the Ionian Islands. A period of normalization followed and a friendship agreement between the two countries was signed on 23 September 1928, under the Greek premiership of Eleftherios Venizelos (1928–1932.) Following the Italian annexation of Albania, relations between Italy and Greece deteriorated and the Greeks began defensive preparations in case of an Italian attack. On 11 September 1939, Mussolini told his representative in Athens, Emanuele Grazzi, that "Greece does not lie on our path, and we want nothing from her" and Italian troops, based in Albania, were pulled back about 12 miles (19 km) from the Greek border.

Despite these reassurances, the Italians launched a propaganda campaign against Greece and the Italian army provoked incidents, aircraft entered Greek territory and air attacks were made on Greek naval vessels. On 15 August 1940 (Dormition of the Theotokos a Greek national religious holiday), the Greek light cruiser Elli was sunk by the submarine Delfino in Tinos harbor. Despite evidence of Italian responsibility, the Greek government announced that the attack had been carried out by a submarine of unknown nationality. During 1940, the Italian army made plans to invade Corfu and Greece; {{citation}}: Empty citation (help) On 7 October, German troops entered Romania, to guard the Ploesti oil fields. Mussolini was not informed in advance and regarded it as an encroachment on the Italian sphere of influence. Mussolini advanced plans for an invasion Greece.

It appears that the article turns to become somewhat more unbalanced. I'm afraid that the "background" subsections are already too large, and they are still growing. On the contrary the Greek-Italian conflict itself is for an unknown reason trimmed... especially the Spring Offensive section. Alexikoua (talk) 08:19, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I did that after visiting the page as part of a process [by several editors] of ridding many articles of tendentious interpolations by an editor with NPOV obsessions. It seemed to me that while the article was basically sound, it suffered from the failings listed in the banner. Much of the trimming of the Background I did has been reverted and appears to be entangled in ownership.Keith-264 (talk) 09:14, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

As for the specific section, although the Italian-Greek conflict was severely trimmed, the descriptions about British reinforcements, that didn't play any role in the Greek-Italian conflicts, is expanded, by naming each formation. Even units that never set foot on Greece are mentioned (Polish Brigade).Alexikoua (talk) 08:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree but it is a response to Enigma's question on the talk page. I'm quite happy to relegate the details to a Note. It's a convention elsewhere not to abbreviate titles the first time, especially where they are wikilinked, hence the full naming of Italian divisions too. The section has a main article link so I wouldn't go above two paragraphs for fear of duplication.Keith-264 (talk) 09:14, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

A Lull is a pause. I had a look at Italian Spring Offensive and it seems an ideal place for the details. I think that this article works best as an overview and that the articles have been written on the military operations are the places for the details.Keith-264 (talk) 09:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

References

CE

Tired a non-contentious ce of three paragraphs to reduce verbiage while not changing the sense of the passages. Comments?Keith-264 (talk) 13:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

It has grammatical mistakes. For example: "The German invasion Poland without informing the Italians..." The "German invasion" was not in a position to "inform" the Italians. This happened because we cannot de-personalise Hitler's decision. Hitler took the decision not to inform the Italians, not the "German invasion". I know that this could have been phrased "The Germans invaded Poland without informing the Italians..." but in that case who were these anonymous Germans? Especially when it is a well-known fact that Hitler was calling the shots. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:06, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that's a fair point, although I'm reluctant to overemphasise the individual culpability of Hitler and Mussolini, this is an occasion when they did determine (at least the timing of) events. I won't change anything else today without discussion first.Keith-264 (talk) 14:28, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

You're not so bad yourself. ;O) I've been having second thoughts about the balance of the article, after agreeing with Alexikoua the other day. With the relegation of the narrative detail of the German invasion to a short section and a main link to the BofG page, there is more room for the background, prelude and aftermath, if Alexikoua agrees that the places for the military detail are the separate "battle" pages. I've had a look and they are somewhat sparse so could bear much more narrative. I followed the precedent of Battle of Arras (1917) here Battle of Passchendaele where the main page has the strategy, operational overview and historical significance in detail, the battles are briefly noted and linked to separate pages with their detail and everything is tied together in the Aftermath section. Keith-264 (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

To tell you the truth I think you are not so bad either. :) In fact I agree with your edits most of the time and I am glad we have reached some convergence. Keep up the good work. Thank you again. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:19, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I think there is to much about Hitler and the Germans. Italy had long term imperial ambitions, and per the sources, were working towards them regardless of if Hitler and el Duce were on speaking terms.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Probably but I only have peripheral sources on this part of the war. The Grand Strategy volume I checked yesterday also made it clear that Mussolini had an individual involvement in the invasion of Greece (it mentioned that he kept the air force and navy c-inc's out of the meeting which decided on the war). Does anyone have a citation to underline the continuity of Italian liberal and Fascist imperialism? The unification of Italy into a national state seems more significant than the Mussolini regime in imperialist aggression.

• Does anyone have a view about the citation style to use? I've put in some sfn's because that's the system I know best and I can do ref-refs but not the abbreviated version. I'd put the full book references in the references section at least. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 16:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• I have no problem with the citation style you prefer. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

OK thanks, if anyone else has a view please let me know. When we've found citations for the uncited paragraphs it won't be far off B class.Keith-264 (talk) 17:57, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

CE2

Removed material as per discussion to avoid duplication detail in the Battle of Greece article and tidied prose in several paragraphs.Keith-264 (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Reverted peremptory reverts and am now open for discussion with anyone who wants an explanation. Keith-264 (talk) 19:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Your removal of the preparations and planning by the Italians I do not find an improvement. It is highly relevant to the article and well-sourced. Athenean (talk) 19:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I removed gossip about Mussolini which relied on inferences about his motives which are inherently speculative. A description of what happened is necessary before adding commentary by historians and writers about why they think it happened, which is in the Analysis section. This is elementary stuff, please revert your revert or offer something more than a contrary opinion.Keith-264 (talk) 19:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Template:Infobox military conflict

"result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much."

Fabrizor (?) please take note.Keith-264 (talk) 19:23, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

All right, but by these standards it was an Italian victory right? Fabrizor (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Why?Keith-264 (talk) 20:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Didn't the Axis won in the end? Fabrizor (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The Italian invasion of Greece failed.Keith-264 (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. And if the Italian invasion of Greece article should ever be written, a Greek victory it should stat. But the belligerence stance between the two countries continued, even if Italy played a very minor part in it (I'm considering the Greek invasion of Albany as part of the Italian Invasion of Greece for the sake of simplicity).Fabrizor (talk) 20:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The Italians were defeated, the German invasion of Greece succeeded and this was coincidental. The Greeks won the Italo-Greek War and lost the German-Greek war. Do you want Greek victory or See the 'Aftermath' section? Keith-264 (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You can't consider the War ended on April 6. Did the Italians and Greeks stopped shooting each other? All of this was concomitant. Fabrizor (talk) 20:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

If you wish to point into the Aftermath section, no problem by me. Fabrizor (talk) 20:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks babeKeith-264 (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The part you removed also included concrete facts about the planning of the invasion, which does not fall under "speculation about Mussolini's motives". Here is the text you removed: "Mussolini made the impulsive decision to invade Greece, an act which was typical of Mussolini's leadership style. His fury over the stationing of German troops in Romania, however, affected only the timing of the attack, since an attack on Greece was part of Mussolini's plan to establish Italian rule over the Balkans and the Mediterranean. Although Hitler had conceded that Greece would be left to Italy, repeated warnings had been given that turmoil in the Balkans was to be avoided. Mussolini was wishful thinking that at the Brenner meeting Hitler had given the Italian military carte blanche in Greece.

This is soap opera not history.

On 13 October, he ordered that the invasion should be launched on 26 October.

OK

Mussolini summoned a meeting of his military chiefs to take place next day. Only the chief of the general staff, Marshal Pietro Badoglio, voiced objections, citing the need to assemble a force of at least 20 divisions prior to invasion. However, the local commander in Albania, Lt. Gen. Sebastiano Visconti Prasca, argued that only three further divisions would be needed and these only after the first phase of the offensive, capturing Epirus. Mussolini was reassured by his staff that the war in Greece would be a campaign of ten to fifteen days.

As you can see the last three sentences are not about Mussolini's motives. Athenean (talk) 19:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

OK take the rest out again, leave that in.Keith-264 (talk) 20:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Hurry up Athenean (if that's who you are), I can't wait all night, I've got a Sainsbury's house red frenzy to organise. ;O)Keith-264 (talk) 20:27, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Seeing the back and forth above and on the article, i have reviewed the opening sections. Some material is repetitive and some material is better suited elsewhere in the article. I propose the below draft as a starting point to be worked on, cut down, fleshed out, etc.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with taking out the descriptions of Mussolini's motives. These are based on reliable sources and it is not up to Wikipedia editors to second-guess them. Also comments such as Hurry up Athenean (if that's who you are),... are personal attacks and should be removed, preferably by the one who made them. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Where exactly are his motives removed? His motive was imperial, the proposed draft expands upon this and cuts down on the did it on a whim rhetoric (you cant do something on a whim, when reliable sources show the military had been making plans to invade coupled with a long term objective of invading).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

(There was no personal attack; I suggest you develop a sense of humour.) Quite agree, reducing the fascist regime to Mussolini's ego is asinine. Writers who resort to this can hardly be considered reliable, they're the ones doing the second guessing.Keith-264 (talk) 23:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Quite agree, reducing the fascist regime to Mussolini's ego is asinine. This is not what the reliable source is doing. It simply describes the motives of Mussolini given the wider geopolitical developments of the time and this being a dictatorship it is obvious that what influenced Mussolini had the greatest weight in the decision-making process of his autocratic regime. So, no second-guessing of the reliable sources please. And don't patronise me about sense of humour. Humour at the expense of other editors is not humour and makes no sense other than that of a PA. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You are mistaken in your inferences and need to do some work on ownership.

Keith-264 (talk) 00:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I wish I had your sense of (false) moral superiority. Your accusations of ownership over a disagreement about your removal of material from the article by second-guessing the reliable sources is also absurd. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:38, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Yet again you resort to a self-serving inference about motive.Keith-264 (talk) 00:53, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Please address the question: What specifically is it that has been removed from the draft that you object to? Literally copy and paste the sentence or paragraph so we can discuss.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:10, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Isn't obvious enough from my revert? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

No, it's time for you to be specific.Keith-264 (talk) 00:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Not in the slightest since that was not the draft below that was reverted, and most of what is below is from the actual article with irreverent stuff removed (Metaxas Line, Mussolini's prison talk in regards to France and Britain (not aimed at Greece), Lebensraum (the incorrect term for Italy), etc etc). Come on, provide some specifics so a discussion can be had to improve the article!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:23, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

We have enough trouble communicating regarding my revert to add more stuff like the draft below which I have not looked at. If you bother to look at what I reverted, from the diff I gave you, you should be able to see the removals I objected to. That's what a diff does. So check the diff and let me know. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you have a look and use it as a basis for discussion as Enigma suggested.Keith-264 (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you learn how to indent properly and how to read diffs. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:40, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I won't add colons indefinitely because I don't want the text to slant across the page. I want you to read the proposed draft so that consensus can be reached. So far you've made a general criticism and refused to be specific, I suggest you reconsider.Keith-264 (talk) 00:53, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Ahem, you did bring up NPA. The diff is not the basis for discussion. The draft below is. It was created to attempt to get around the back and forth above and on the actual article. Can we please discuss the draft, not previous edits, so we can move forward with improving the article.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I haven't checked how the draft below relates to my revert and I don't know if the material of my revert is preserved or not in the draft below. I also don't have the time currently to determine that by comparing the draft material with that of my revert. Therefore I cannot offer my opinion on the draft. Also your remark Ahem, you did bring up NPA. is unjustified. I was making remarks based on facts. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest we all calm down. I also heavily recommend that all users read the below draft, in comparison to what is currently in the article, before re-engaging in debate. Until tomorrow then.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:17, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm bored with Dr K's sniping so I'm changing my approach and will only respond to constructive comments about the article.Keith-264 (talk) 08:17, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Your haphazard indentation continues and so do your personal attacks. Please stop. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 08:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

See above.Keith-264 (talk) 09:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Ditto. But unfortunately it is a big WP:WASTEOFTIME trying to make you understand, and comply with, basic Wikipedia norms. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we please focus!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:51, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The map is very confusing. The colors are too similar and the legend is too small to tell what colors correspond to what. The terms used are also confusing and too similar to one another. Athenean (talk) 05:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The map is enlargeable, which is why it's a thumb. Would you prefer a (click to enlarge) added to the caption?Keith-264 (talk) 08:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Does anyone disagree that the Background section as reverted merits the "This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling"?Keith-264 (talk) 23:53, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I don't see issues with grammar, style, cohesion, tone or spelling. Athenean (talk) 05:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I do, has there been a decision to use British or US English?Keith-264 (talk) 08:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Keith, when working to create the draft I spotted numerous instances of where the English needed fixing (its a little to early so what I have wrote may be ironic! :) ). I also support the notion of cohesion, the below draft has removed a lot of information that would be better suited elsewhere or scrapped.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I have moved information from the current background section to the area detailing both sides armies, since it is of most relevance their. What is left, would be what was CE into the below section. Are we happy with it, shall we move that to the article (although it would need to be thoroughly checked for correct referencing due to parts of the current article not being referenced)?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

OK by me but I can't really help with citations for the Campaign section, because I only have British sources. There's some useful stuff on Enigma decodes giving notice of Italian and German moves (the British knew about the Italian cruiser sortie leading up to Cape Matapan) and the RAF history has something on air operations against the Italians (also blown by Enigma [the machine, not you;O)])Keith-264 (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Book missing

The following was already in the article, but does not have a ref at the bottom of the article: Verzijl (1970), p. 396. Anyone know what it is, and can add in the appropriate info?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

DoneKeith-264 (talk) 17:19, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank ye.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Verification

Greek divisions were composed of three regiments and Italian divisions had recently been reorganised with only two regiments, leaving Greek formations up to 50 per cent larger.

The above is sourced to Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts. When I restructured and did a minor ce of the article yesterday, this stood out. I have had a glance at the only version of the book on Google Books, which lacks page numbers, and it does not appear to support this conclusion (although without page numbers, i may have just been looking in the wrong place). What i did find states the Italians attacked with nine divisions totaling 125,000 men and the Greeks were able to counter that with ten divisions with 180,000 men. That is not exactly a 50 per cent increase due to the Italian divisions being down a regiment. Can anyone verify this statement?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

This book is not very reliable on details as far as the Albanian front is concerned, which is not surprising given its focus on the North African front. The Italians had nine divisions in Albania, but attacked with six of them in the first stage, and the Greeks had a force equal to about three divisions in the area at the start of operations. The difference is that Greece could mobilize and send troops to the front far quicker than the Italians. IIRC, by 14 November the opposing forces were 13 Italian divisions plus independent regiments versus 10 Greek divisions or equivalent. I'll have to check in more detail, and will look for more credible sources on numbers. Constantine ✍ 12:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Playfair I p. 38 Italian army began reorganising in 1939 to reduce Inf divs to two regts, not complete by Sept 1939.Keith-264 (talk) 12:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

SUMMARY TABLE OF THE WARTIME COMPOSITION OF AN INFANTRY DIVISION (Mountain Type*)Keith-264 (talk) 13:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Scripts

For removal of duplicate wikilinks, see here: User:Keith-264/common.js If you have the scripts on a page like this you can find duplicate wikilinks, citation errors and references errors by clicking headings in the toolbox.Keith-264 (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Consistent sfn refs, can't find full bibliographic details for Goulis; Maïdis (1967). Ο Δεύτερος Παγκόσμιος Πόλεμος [The Second World War] (in Greek). Filologiki G. Bibi., can anyone help? ThanksKeith-264 (talk) 13:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I've searched for it and have found only a couple of hits. It doesn't seem to be particularly notable even in Greece. I'd suggest replacing it. Constantine ✍ 19:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

OK thanksKeith-264 (talk) 20:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)