Talk:Eyalet of the Archipelago

Capital

One source gives Rhodes; another, a British discussion of Ottoman taxes, gives "Dardanelles," which doesn't appear to make any sense. Even if they intended Çanakkale, it wasn't part of this eyalet. Any idea what they meant? — LlywelynII 20:04, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Apparently, Gallipoli. — LlywelynII 01:03, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Date

The vilayet article claims the eyalet was founded in the mid-16th century. This one, not until the mid-18th. — LlywelynII 20:20, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

(corrected)--Phso2 (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Name

Is this a standard English translation outside of Wikipedia? The province included Cyprus and is actually named after the Mediterranean Sea, not the Aegean, so "Archipelago" doesn't seem very felicitous. — LlywelynII 19:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

In old Turkish the adjective clause Bahri Sefid means White sea. But this is a proper noun and it means means Mediterranean Sea.(Modern Turkish Akdeniz) So both the name of the article and Turkish translation need to be changed. If the English translation is preferred, Eyalet of Mediterranean would be the best. I'll try to reach the editor.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:38, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• "Eyalet of Mediterranean" (all languages) - 0
• "Eyalet of the Mediterranean islands" (all languages) - 1

Takabeg (talk) 12:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

How about checking for Eyalet of Archipelago ? I always prefer original proper nouns. Eyalet of Mediterranean is not my choice. Eyalet of Cezayir-i Bahr-i Sefid is the originbal name. I only want to point out that the name white sea (as the translation of the Turkish name) is meaningless and white sea should be replaced with Mediterranean. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 16:10, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• "Eyalet of the Archipelago" -Llc 2

Eyalet of the Archipelago is not popular. But Eyalet of Mediterranean is probably original research. Takabeg (talk) 16:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• "Province of the Mediterranean Islands" 1
• province of the 'islands of the Mediterranean.' - 1, Province of the Islands of the Mediterranean Sea - 1
• "Province of the Islands of the White Sea" 3, but "Vilayet"

Takabeg (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Standard searches include -wiki -wikipedia -Llc:

• "eyalet..." (7/0) and "province of the archipelago" (7/6)
• "Eyalet..." (0) and "Province of the Aegean Archipelago" (5/2)
• "X of Archipelago" (0)
• "X of the Greek Archipelago" (0)
• "Eyalet..." (0/0) and "Province of the islands of the white sea" (9/0)
• "Eyalet..." (0/0) and "Province of the islands of the aegean" (1 for "...sea" & 1 for "...archipelago")
• "Eyalet of the white sea" 2/0 (+1/0 for "eyelet..."; 0/0 for "province...")
• "Eyalet of the aegean islands" 2/0 (0/0 for "province...")
• "Eyalet..." (1/1) and "province of the mediterranean islands" (1/0)

Google Scholar also likes "Province of the Islands" (12).

Also, looks like White Sea should stay. =) — LlywelynII 01:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll punch around on google for exact numbers later, but on its merits, I don't think I can agree with you. It seems like the WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME is "Province of the Archipelago" (the conversation about whether to use "Eyalet/Vilayet" or combine them into "Province" is a separate issue, though, being discussed here), which means — however ugly it is — we should keep that name til the scholars change their mind and let us know by publishing.

"Eyalet of the Mediterranean" would be a great name if we could violate WP:OR & WP:NOTNEO and make up stuff on our own, but we really shouldn't. "Province of the Islands" might work and seems to have some recent use, but not sure.

Turkish "White Sea" certainly meant "Mediterranean," but I thought the literal translation more beautiful. I linked it to the Mediterranean article to clarify, but if editors feel that's too poetic, we can argue about it. I don't think confusion with the Russian White Sea is really possible. — LlywelynII 16:37, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Another factor for me was also that it was very, very difficult to find a translation of Cezayir-i Bahr-i Sefid in an English source. Automatic translators produce garbage about Algeria and can't read the rest. I had to piece it together from obscure pages on the Turkish wiki, which to my mind means someone should make a note of it somewhere more accessible. — LlywelynII 16:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

A bit more information. Actually, Bahri Sefid is not a Turkish clause. It is a combination of a Persian and an Arabic word. I don't think we can find an automatic translator which translates this clause. It literally means White sea . But it is a proper noun and as a proper noun it means Mediterranean Sea. (Actually there is a White sea in the World. But it is at the north of Europa) . As for Cezayir , yes Cezayir also means Algeria. I am not really proposing to move the name. I suggest to change the Turkish translation only. Instead of ( Turkish: Cezayir-i Bahr-i Sefid Eyaleti, "Eyalet of the Islands of the White Sea") I suggest ( Turkish: Cezayir-i Bahr-i Sefid Eyaleti, "Eyalet of the Islands of the Mediterranean Sea"). Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

in the academic paper linked above (The Establishment of the Province of Cezayir-i Bahr-i Sefid by prof.Bostan), the term is translated by "islands of the Aegean Sea". At the time of the establishment, Cyprus was not conquered yet, and some anatolian and thracian mainland belonged to it. The fact is that the "province of the islands of the aegean sea" contained some land that were not actually aegean islands (cyprus and anatolian/thracian mainland).--Phso2 (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes most of the islands are in the Aegean Sea. But Aegean Sea is a part of Mediterranean Sea and sometimes the noun Mediterranean also covers Aegean Sea. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but "islands of the Aegean" = (big A) Archipelago. =) Apparently, the NY Times translated the vilayet as "Vilayet of the Greek Archipelago" which is at least a little more clear. I'll restate my preference for leaving White Sea and linking to the Mediterranean, but we can always translate directly to Mediterranean and then just explain the rest in a footnote. To me, seems clunkier stylistically, but if other readers are confused by "White Sea" I suppose it can't be helped. — LlywelynII 01:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Another name: Uluj Ali's page lists him as Beylerbey of the Isles. =P — LlywelynII 07:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Source for expanding article

you should perhaps check this.--Phso2 (talk) 17:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Are we sure about these sanjaks?

Right now, we're listing:

• ...
• Sanjak of İskenderiyye (Shkodër)
• Sanjak of Dimyad (Damietta) with Reşîd (Rosetta)
• ...

Given that Damietta and Rosetta are the east and central ends of the Nile delta, isn't it a lot more likely that this Iskenderiyye sanjak is the one for Alexandria and not Scutari? — LlywelynII 03:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Probably. Sanjak of Scutari (Liva-i Iskenderiyye) belonged to the Eyalet of Rumili between 1700 and 1730. Takabeg (talk) 04:06, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Regnal Chronologies: Shift to Walis

The Regnal Chronologies site (Gordon, Bruce R. Regnal Chronologies. "[http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/aegean.html The Aegean Islands]: The Aegean Sea: Cezair Bahr-i-Sefid and the Kaptan-ý Derya (Kapudan Pasha - Lord Admiral)". Accessed 12 Sept 2011.) gives the Kapudan Pasha yielding administrative control to a list of walis based on Rhodes starting in 1848. Any idea how that comports with the eyalets lasting til 1864? — LlywelynII 07:45, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Other sources for the archipelago I'll note here to get them off this laptop: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (in Turkish), 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (in Turkish), 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. — LlywelynII 09:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)