Talk:1970 Dominicana de Aviación DC-9 crash

Untitled

Please move this to a page that does not have question marks in the title. RickK 08:47, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Done Antonio Free Bird Martin

Plot to Kill Imbert Barrera?

Many people think that this accident was a murder attempt against Antonio Imbert Barrera. Since he was planing to fly with his wife and daugther to Puerto Rico. In a last minute decision he decide to stay in Dominican Republic.

Antonio Imbert Barrera is one of two survivors of those who, at the behest of the CIA, assassinated Trujillo in 1961.

Mr. Imbert Barrera was also President of the Dominican Republic representing the Loyalist party from 7 May to 30 August 1965.

mrocha

Sources? Flight number?

Unlike most air crash articles on Wikipedia, this one is completely unsourced. The article makes references to an investigation, but does not mention the flight number (which would obviously be in any investigative report). I have tagged this for sourcing and verification. --MCB 07:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I added a link with information about the DC9 accidents in AirSafe I can't find more details about this flight in the web. mrocha

Seems brief ?

99% of other aircraft accident reports i've read on Wikipedia are extremely detailed and interesting to read. This one seems a little short on information about the contaminated fuel, what it was contaminated with, how it came to be used on the plane etc. It seems more interested in which celebrities were on the plane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.61.131.150 (talk) 07:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

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New version of the article (translated from Russian and it's still a community draft)

So I translated the article from the Russian version and made a public draft out of it. Please help me. Link: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Draft:Dominicana_DC-9_air_disaster I will not submit the draft for review until it's satisfactory. I'm a member of the AATF just to let you know. Thank you in advance.Tigerdude9 (talk) 22:59, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

More reliable information

We need more information on the flight number that must be reliable. I have also found the ONLY image of the aircraft involved, except it's from a blog, which isn't very reliable source, but nevertheless here's the link, as it may have more information(unless you have already seen it previously): http://imullix.blogspot.com/2017/01/la-baja-accidentalidad-de-dominicana-de.html Still though, we need sources that are reliable! Tigerdude9 (talk) 16:40, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I have renamed the page to Dominicana Flight 603.

The reason is that Mayday Air Disasters have CLEARLY mentioned it in their twitter page here: https://twitter.com/aircrashmayday/status/831850589642485760?lang=en . It is also standard proceedure to name an airline accident by their flight number. Now, please leave the page to Dominicana Flight 603.

If you bothered to read this page, this has been discussed before. It was discussed here[1] too. There is no reliable source for the flight number and Mayday is not considered a reliable source[2]. This page is being moved back and I am requesting move protection....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:32, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source which states that the flight number is 603 if the Mayday one isn't: https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-douglas-dc-9-32-santo-domingo-102-killed . @Username006: Username006 (talk) 10:55, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Per a request at my talk page, I've move protected the article. Any move should be via WP:RM. I would note that it accident is not covered by the Aviation Safety Network, so I am unable to confirm a flight number via that source. Maybe contemporary newspapers have the answer? There are free access newspapers listed at WP:SHIPS/R if an editor wants to do some digging. If a flight number can be verified, then the article should be moved to the flight number title. Mjroots (talk) 10:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Bureau of Aircraft Accident Archives is an official website even mentioned by wikipedia here: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Bureau_of_Aircraft_Accidents_Archives_(B3A) @Username006: Username006 (talk) 11:16, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 1 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved - it is clear that there will be no consensus to move to the proposed title until the flight number is confirmed by a reliable source. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 14:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

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Dominicana DC-9 air disaster → Dominicana Flight 603 – The aircraft accident has a flight number (i.e. 603) as shown in baaa-acro.com (https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-douglas-dc-9-32-santo-domingo-102-killed) It is also mentioned in wikipedia here: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Bureau_of_Aircraft_Accidents_Archives_(B3A) It is standard proceedure to name an air disaster by their flight number. @Username006: Username006 (talk) 11:31, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

In fact, here is another website i've found in foreign language also stating that the flight number is 603. http://imullix.blogspot.com/2019/02/el-accidente-del-dc-9-32-de-dominicana.html @Username006: Username006 (talk) 17:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, ASN also mentions it as DO603 here: https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700215-0 @Username006: Username006 (talk) 17:47, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello. Perhaps the following Dominicana timetable from 1970 can play some role in resolving this issue?...

http://timetableimages.com/i-df/do7009a.jpg

Itsfullofstars (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Its been pointed out earlier. That 1- The timetable is for months after the accident occurred and 2- It was a different type of aircraft than the one that crashed....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 19:50, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

My apologies. I didn't see it mentioned on this page. Well, at least other wikipedians will be less likely to repeat my error since this talk page now mentions the timetable. FWIW I've done quite a bit of googling and newspaper archive searches looking for the flight number—concentrating solely on news articles written in 1970 (including Spanish-language ones even though my Spanish is very rusty)—with no luck either. Itsfullofstars (talk) 18:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Previous discussion

Text below copied from User talk:Mjroots#I'd like to rename Dominicana DC-9 air disaster to Dominicana Flight 603

==I'd like to rename Dominicana DC-9 air disaster to Dominicana Flight 603== Reason being that baaa-acro.com have clearly mentioned the flight number as DO603. https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-douglas-dc-9-32-santo-domingo-102-killed It is also mentioned by wikipedia here to prove that it is a relible source. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents#Bureau_of_Aircraft_Accidents_Archives_(B3A) It is standard proceedure to rename a page if the flight number is known @Username006: Username006 (talk) 11:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC) @Username006: - I've seen your comment at talk. Given that there is some dispute over the flight number, I'd really prefer to see a contemporary source for the flight number. If you can show me that, then I'll move the article. Other than that, file a WP:RM and let the discussion play out. If you do file a RM, I won't be participating. Mjroots (talk) 11:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC) Okay Username006 (talk) 11:50, 1 June 2021 (UTC) About baa-acro.com, their archive pages seem to have been created recently. Why do I say that? The wayback machine aka archive.org only has snapshots from 2020 for accident pages. I wrote fiction for free on the internet at a website beginning in 2000 but archive.org has snapshots of that website from back then and older. bas-acro.com could be mimicking other websites that say the flight number is 603. That very issue has been raised in the discussions concerning this accident. On a extra note- I have access to the Washingtonpost.com archive. There is nothing at all there on this accident....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:23, 1 June 2021 (UTC) @WilliamJE: have you tried any of the other available newspaper sources at WP:SHIPS/R? Mjroots (talk) 12:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC) Ships/R (BTW I don't do much ship editing so I was unfamilar with this before today) provides a ton of links but I honestly don't know where to start....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:47, 1 June 2021 (UTC) @WilliamJE: - section 3, Newspaper sources Mjroots (talk) 12:51, 1 June 2021 (UTC) I tried those newspapers that covered 1970 and got nothing. Note- I checked Aviation Disasters by David Gero, a book I own. No flight number for the crash is mentioned. FWIW, plane crashes, even major ones, that plce in the 3rd world say 40 to 50 years ago can be very difficult to find contemporary news articles on. I say this even if Google News archive was still fully functional. Take for instance Agadir air disaster, Kano air disaster, and Viasa Flight 742. The last two were the worst aviation crashes ever at the time they occurred. News articles on all three are next to nill and I did all three of those articles when Google News Archive was working....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 16:21, 1 June 2021 (UTC) @WilliamJE: I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Caribbean for assistance in sourcing contemporary newspapers from the Dominican Republic. Sources are likely to be in Spanish if they exist, but that is not an insurmountable problem. Mjroots (talk) 16:35, 1 June 2021 (UTC) Here is a spanish article also stating that the flight number is 603. http://imullix.blogspot.com/2019/02/el-accidente-del-dc-9-32-de-dominicana.html @Username006: Username006 (talk) 17:16, 1 June 2021 (UTC) @Username006: whilst supporting your claim, that source fails WP:RS. I'm not unsympathetic to your wish to move the article. As you can see above, I am trying to help find a useable source to back the flight number. Mjroots (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC) I've found another source in Portugese http://desastresaereosnews.blogspot.com/2021/02/aconteceu-em-15-de-fevereiro-de-1970.html @Username006: Username006 (talk) 17:40, 1 June 2021 (UTC) In fact, I just looked up ASN and they too mention the flight number as 603. https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700215-0 Username006 (talk) 17:44, 1 June 2021 (UTC) @Username006: @WilliamJE: - ASN is a reliable source, what do you think? Mjroots (talk) 18:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC) MJR, the curious thing. ASN's database (according to the wayback machine) still had no flight number as of last March 4[3] or later. I swear there was no flight number when I checked there early today. One way or another it is a recent change. I'll defer to you and won't do anything if you decide to change the article. FYI User, blogspot fails WP:SPS. It should never be used as a source....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 18:41, 1 June 2021 (UTC) I thought it strange as it had no flight number when I looked earlier today, somebody copying wikipedia ? MilborneOne (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2021 (UTC) I couldn't find the article when I looked (added - because I looked in the wrong place). Am still minded to say that we really need a contemporary (pre-internet) source. Mjroots (talk) 19:40, 1 June 2021 (UTC) Agree and note the ASN page code says it was updated today <div class="lastupdated">Last updated: 1 June 2021</div> MilborneOne (talk) 19:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC) I agree with both of you. Also I'm glad to hear I wasn't seeing things this morning....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:36, 1 June 2021 (UTC) If that is the case then obviously has to be verified by someone. You simply can't add information to the report without referring it to a reliable source and that is the main reason why at the very top of the report there is a status report stating that if its final, it means that all the information that needs to be added to the report is been verified and added and no other information can be added. However, if it doesn't state that it is final, that means information may be missing and can be added at a later date. This is exactly what happened here Also, if you cannot agree to move the page, even after showing reliable sources and every other source I can think of my head. You are being unfair and unjust @Username006: Username006 (talk) 03:31, 2 June 2021 (UTC) The ASN entry only lists David Gero's book "Air Disasters" as a source. The accident is covered on p92 of Aviation Disasters by David Gero, and no flight number is given. Have emailed ASN asking for their source. Mjroots (talk) 04:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC) But as you said earlier, Aviation Disasters is not a reliable source. Also, I think we should shift this discussion over to the article talk page instead of here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Username006 (talk • contribs) 05:56, 2 June 2021 (UTC) End of copied text. Mjroots (talk) 06:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - I know I said at my talk that I wouldn't comment here, but as my comments are now in this section I'm making this a formal oppose. I fully appreciate Username006's position on this issue, having recently argued against moving the Ryanair Flight 4978 article away from a flight number to a different title. I'm not against moving the article per se, but we really need a source that predates at least the first airing to the Mayday/Aircrash Investigation programme. I've looked at newspaper sources such as The Times and the Delpher Kranten archive and come up with nothing. Who is the accident investigation authority for the Dominican Republic? A copy of the investigation report would be irrefutable. Mjroots (talk) 06:15, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• @Mjroots: Dominican newspapers for the period 1961–70 are searchable at the Archivo General de la Nación. There is one paper for 1970, and none of its articles refer to a flight number. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:22, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

If you are referring to Air disasters then I would mention that on their twitter page, they did say that the Flight's number was 603. I highly doubt that it is a rumour and I'm sure that the flight number is 603 as I referred to several other sources earlier @Username006: Username006 (talk) 14:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

In fact, the corresponding page in Portuguese, also, mentions the title as Dominicana Flight 603 https://pt.wiki.x.io/wiki/Voo_Dominicana_603 . Now it should be very much obvious that the flight number is 603. @Username006: Username006 (talk) 15:03, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

No it shouldn't be. WP can't be used as a source per WP:CIRCULAR. Your persistent ignorance of WP policies and or the twisting of those and what are([[Aviation Disasters by David Gero) and aren't reliable sources (The television series Mayday, Wikipedia, self-published blogs like blogspot), plus some of your conduct on other pages, aka Flight 603, makes a case of you violating WP:POINTY. I may ask a uninvolved administrator to look into your conduct if you persist. This whole discussion is becoming a timesink....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I apologise if I have violated these rules but I feel like I'm forced to say a valid correction which you don't seem to agree. Dominicana Flight 603 is quite certain a Flight number because if ASN had disagreed, then it would've obviously not been added in the database. But since it is, then obviously it is correct information. And just like wikipedia, ASN also needs to be cited to a reliable information source. But even after such a move, you don't seem to agree. Also, ASN information can be updated anytime as long as the report is not final through a request by the author. This is the main reason why I would like to stick to this point. @Username006: Username006 (talk) 17:10, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006: - I know it's frustrating. None of us are against the article being moved. We just want a decent source first. Find that and the article will be moved. Mjroots (talk) 11:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mjroots: Here's a source you may like and which we all are probably looking for: https://dominicanavuela.com/la-bruja-anda-suelta-accidentes-aereos-en-la-republica-dominicana/ @Username006: Username006 (talk) 18:04, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, it's not a blog and on the face of it looks good, although I've not run it through Google Translate yet. @MilborneOne and WilliamJE:, what do you think? Mjroots (talk) 18:23, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

It is self-published. The author is also the owner[4] of the website....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 18:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

And it dates from 2016 and quotes wikipedia as one of sources. MilborneOne (talk) 20:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mjroots: Here's a source you may want to consider checking: https://ahoramismo.com/deportes/2016/08/el-equipo-de-voleibol-femenino-nacional-de-puerto-rico-brasil-juegos-olimpicos-de-2016-seleccion-femenina-accidente-de-avion-yosoyvoli-karina-ocasio/ @Username006: Username006 (talk) 17:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

The post dated August 6 2016 links to the WP article here at the time. It was titled Flight 603 then....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 18:07, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

How about this one? http://imullix.blogspot.com/2016_02_01_archive.html @Username006: Username006 (talk) 16:31, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006:} It is time to drop the stick. You have raised this source before[5] and was told[6] it was not a reliable source. On two other occasions, here[7] and here[8], you were told that blogspot is not acceptable as a reliable source. The next time you do this, I will either reach out to an uninvolved administrator or go to WP:ANI and ask you be blocked for violating WP:DISRUPT on multiple occasions....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 16:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Question

This section is not about the page move but in the first sentence, it says that the also known as Dominicana DC-9 Santo Domingo air disaster but it doesn't refer it to a citation. Thus, I'd like a citation for it as I'm not entirely sure if it was also really known as that. @Username006: Username006 (talk) 18:17, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Googling the exact phrase "Dominicana DC-9 Santo Domingo air disaster" in English returned zero hits. Likewise zero hits for a search omitting DC-9 from the phrase: "Dominicana Santo Domingo air disaster". I suppose there might be a Spanish phrase that would match, but I don't know. Itsfullofstars (talk) 19:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, I just now looked at the article itself (I should have done that first, right?) and noticed that the exact phrase in the article is "Dominicana de Aviación Santo Domingo DC-9 air disaster" so my google searches immediately above aren't relevant, are they? Nevermind! Itsfullofstars (talk) 20:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Itsfullofstars: Please don't try to be sarcastic as I'm really not sure if this was really also called so. It can also be called as the Dominicana Carribean air disaster as well. I'm not sure if most people really called it so. This is the main reason why. @Username006: Username006 (talk) 18:00, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I was having a laugh at *myself*, I assure you, for being lazy and not doing the right google searches. I apologize for any misreading of the tone of my post above. I tend to be self-deprecating by nature, but how could you know that? Answer: you couldn't. In any case, my flippant response wasn't directed at you, but I can see how it could have misconstrued. By the way, I'm leaning towards renaming the article, which is why I've spent a lot of time trying to find the flight number. I thought the timetable was 'good enough' evidence but others disagree, and that's fine. I understand the concerns about it. On a happier note, I did manage to find a flight number for another crash, and put it into that article with a cited primary source from the time of that crash. I've requested a page move, as well. Itsfullofstars (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Dominicana Flight 603

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&redir_esc=y&id=zkspAQAAIAAJ&dq=Dominicana+De+Aviacion+Flight+603&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=DO603 Can this be a possible source? Username006 (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006: Drop the stick now! That's a 1967 source which we can't even read. I saw the message you put up on your User page saying you don't plan on dropping this. Based on that and this I should report you....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:18, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006:I am still trying to find sources and just because I found another one means that you will report me? Huh? Username006 (talk) 10:23, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, you should download that image and see it for yourself Username006 (talk) 10:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

It states that it is DO603 from Santo Domingo to San Juan. Also, don't try to unnecessarily push people to drop the stick. We are here to have a discussion and not an argument Username006 (talk) 10:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

What download? How does a 1967 source say anything about a 1970 plane crash?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006: Time table? Username006 (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

It is a timetable for your information Username006 (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Again, what download?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:43, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006: Download the image!!!!! Username006 (talk) 10:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Username006: If you don't believe me Username006 (talk) 10:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: What do you think? Username006 (talk) 11:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

How does a 1967 source say anything about something that happened in 1970?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: I just said that it is a timetable from 1967 Username006 (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

For the third time, how does something written in 1967 prove something in 1970? FYI I am in the process of completing an ANI complaint....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

ANI filed here[9]....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:10, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: Because last time when the timetable was given, you said that it is from a later date and it should be from a date before and also not too old. That's why I gave you this one. This is not a report about the crash from 1970 but rather a timetable. Please try to understand. I would like others to see this as well. This is from a book. Username006 (talk) 12:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Please try and follow WP:INDENT, otherwise the conversation is impossible to follow. Canterbury Tail talk 12:33, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

My opinion, no a timetable from 1967 does not prove what the flight number of this flight was in 1970. Flight numbers change all the time. Anyway we should be referring to this incident by whatever common reliable references refer to it. Canterbury Tail talk 12:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 25 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move to 1970 Dominicana de Aviación DC-9 crash (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

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Dominicana DC-9 air disaster → 1970 Santo Domingo Dominicana de Aviación DC-9 crash – The current title is somewhat vague and not very consistent with other aviation accident articles (e.g. 1972 Adana Turkish Airlines DC-9 crash or 1969 Aswan Ilyushin Il-18 crash). On first glance, the current title may seem like a commonly used name, however, a quick search and the references given in the article say otherwise. Since no common name is used to describe this accident, we should follow the essay WP:AATF which states how an article should be named for accidents without a flight number which gives support to the proposed title. GalacticOrbits (talk) 09:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 17:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 22:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Do we need the country in the article title? 1970 Dominicana de Aviación DC-9 crash would seem to be a better title, which I would support. Before anyone raises the flight number issue again, consensus was that the flight number was unverifiable. Until such time that it is verifiable, it is not open for discussion. Mjroots (talk) 11:11, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd also support 1970 Dominicana DC-9 crash. While the airline's article is at Dominicana de Aviación (as disambiguation is needed, see WP:NATURAL), its WP:COMMONNAME is "Dominicana." 162 etc. (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses and apologize for the late reply. I was a bit carried away with the other titles mentioned above since both used the longer title with the placename but since this is not mentioned in the guidelines, yes, we can go ahead and remove the "Santo Domingo" from the proposed title. Uncertain about the removal of "de Aviación" from the title as it seems that the accident naming convention does keep it as seen in other disasters, even if it does follow(See Cubana de Aviación Flight 455, Intercontinental de Aviación Flight 256 or Mexicana de Aviación Flight 940). Feel free to leave your response below! GalacticOrbits (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll note that these airlines are commonly known as "Cubana", "Inter", and "Mexicana", respectively. 162 etc. (talk) 20:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Relister comment: Second relist, in the hopes of achieving a clearer consensus on the question of "Dominicana de Aviación" vs. "Dominicana". ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 22:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.