Talk:Christ the King (Almada)

Sanctuary of Christ the King

http://www.lisbon-tourism.com/en/lisbon-attractions/historical-edifices-and-monuments-in-lisbon/national-sanctuary-of-christ-the-king.html

This source looks as though it is Google-translated. What we need are WP:RS print sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:02, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

You are deleting official sources without any valid reason. The Sanctuary of Christ the King (www.cristorei.pt/aboutus.aspx) Official Website in the English version states its correct name: "Sanctuary of Christ the King" or "National Shrine of Christ the King". Please, do not delete the correct information about it. The sanctuary of Christ the King and the sanctuary of Fátima are the most well-known shrines in Portugal and they are also known by these names. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 22:43, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm reverting the edit because it didn't pass WP:RS. An "official source" website isn't necessarily WP:RS http://www.cristorei.pt/aboutus.aspx looks machine-translated from the Portuguese html, but even if it wasn't we need print sources before changing the lead sentence of the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:49, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: You should be reasonable. If the Portuguese name is Santuário de Cristo Rei, it is clear to everyone that the correct English translation is Sanctuary of Christ the King. There are a lot of references showing that and in Portugal it is the official name of that building. Have you read the history? The history of the monument explains unequivocally that works were made so that it passed to be recognized and named as Sanctuary. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 23:03, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: Read also the references of "Sanctuary of Christ the King" in books as: Lisbon: Art and History (English version), by Casa Editrice Bonechi and Footloose Pilgrims - a journal of moped travels trough Europe by Dick Lynam & Bill Lynam. I'm sorry, but it is the shrine's correct name. Thank you. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 23:15, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Small "s", and one WP:RS source, translation of a local Guidebook. The Bill Lynam travelogue not sure about. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:44, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 9 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus is that the proposed name is not the common name in English reliable sources.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:41, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

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Christ the King (Almada) → Sanctuary of Christ the King – The correct name of this Catholic monument and Portuguese shrine dedicated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is "Sanctuary of Christ the King". Anjo Sozinho (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 09:16, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:30, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose The phrase "Sanctuary of Christ the King" is unknown in English books, and a poor translation of the Portuguese. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
• The phrase "Sanctuary of Christ the King" is cited as the real English name in the official sources of the Portuguese National Shrine and also cited in the tourism books. I added new references in the article showing that. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 20:50, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
• @Anjo-sozinho and In ictu oculi: contested move Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:30, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I already opposed above. Waiting on WP:RS sources demonstrating that the name is correct before being added to lead. But even if and when that happens, the title is a separate issue, per WP:COMMONNAME. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: You should be reasonable. If the Portuguese name is Santuário de Cristo Rei, it is clear to everyone that the correct English translation is Sanctuary of Christ the King. There are a lot of references showing that and in Portugal it is the official name of that building. Have you read the history? The history of the monument explains unequivocally that works were made so that it passed to be recognized and named as Sanctuary. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 23:03, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME does not follow correct translation, it follows WP:RS. Please: How many English books do you count in these search results. Results will vary as they respond to User's cookies, but we get The Catholic Digest - 1960 "In the one year that it has loomed over Lisbon with outstretched arms, Portugal's mammoth statue of Christ the King has ..." then Martin Gostelow Lisbon - 1994 "Just across the river, above Cacilhas and looming up over the bridge's toll booths, is Lisbon's variation on Rio de Janeiro's landmark, the statue of Christ the King. Almost 30m (90ft) tall, it stands on a modern four-pronged pedestal, with a ...". Those are English print sources. No mention of "Sanctuary". In ictu oculi (talk) 23:11, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: Read also the references of "Sanctuary of Christ the King" in books as: Lisbon: Art and History (English version), by Casa Editrice Bonechi and Footloose Pilgrims - a journal of moped travels trough Europe by Dick Lynam & Bill Lynam. I'm sorry, but it is the shrine's correct name. Thank you. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 23:15, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Let the RM process run and we will see what others think, and whether the "correct name" is the WP:COMMONNAME. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:17, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi:I have already given you literary references, but now I realize that it is a matter of mere personal disagreement by your part. I am really sorry for that. My goal was to correct the errors of the article and complete it, but with your reversions I have already seen that this will be an impossible task. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 23:24, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Please see WP:Edit warring. When an edit has been reverted and you have been asked on the Talk page to provide WP:RS sources, that does not mean just put them back in. Interesting that the English version of Emília Ferreira, ‎Jorge Cabello - 2004's Lisboa guidebook has "the sanctuary of" (small s) before "Christ the King", nevertheless see all results for "Christ the King" + Almada. I request the next editor revert the lead of article to stable form in accord with English books. At least while this RM is going on. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:36, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - it seems that part of the discussion here is about what the article should be about. Is it focused on the statue (1969) or the chapel next door (1984). Yes, the article includes both. But WP:COMMONNAME for the whole article, statue + chapel is still going to be either Cristo Rei (Almada) or the English equivalent. ........... In the meantime best not to move the French German and Spanish articles either please. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Agreed. It is not about the "common name", once we determine what is the focus of the article we'll know how to name it. When in doubt I would stick to Cristo Rei / Christ the King, as it would encompass both the "statue of ..." and the "sanctuary of ...". Nabla (talk) 09:05, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
    • It should be remembered, however, that the role of Wikipedia is not to rename the official names of national monuments and shrines... the "Sanctuary of Christ the King" has a formal and real name "National Shrine of Christ the King", other names are mere inventions. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 13:43, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
      • Keep in mind that WP's policy is to use the most common name in English. I do not like quite a few of them when it comes to Portuguese subjects - the worst case is probably Ferdinand Magellan, that is Fernão de Magalhães!! believe it or not; a persons name should not be "translated" in general, but even worse, this is half spanish, half english-folks-can-not-say-ga-nor-lh-nor-ã so bang!! they make up some weird word. In that case the "common name" is so far out from the proper name that I think the proper name should be used (though I understand the reasoning for the current one). In this case, there is no huge difference, so I still think Cristo Rei / Christ the King is a good compromise between the exact proper name and the one familiar to the readers, and in Portugal (even if that matters little). Note that I do not think it would be a bad move, I simply think it is better as is. Nabla (talk) 23:49, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
        • Agreed. The correct name is "Sanctuary of Christ the King" (or "Shrine of Christ the King"). It must be renamed. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 20:16, 19 February 2017

• Oppose. No evidence that the proposed name is correct. A translation of the official name seems to have no status at all under our article title policy. Andrewa (talk) 11:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Size

The infobox claims this is 25m by 25m, but just by eyeballing it you can see that it's clearly taller than it is wide, so at least one of these numbers is wrong. 86.130.89.208 (talk) 14:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)