Talk:Agro Nocerino Sarnese

Requested move 20 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: speedy moved. Previous consensus version (even if by virtue of then-WP:SILENCE alone) restored. This is all backwards. Corrected. El_C 15:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC) El_C 15:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

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Agro nocerino-sarnese → Agro Nocerino Sarnese – Proper names are capitalised in English (MOS:PROPERNAME). Moved by disruptive editor who refuses to understand that. I've twice moved it back to the original title, would appreciate it if someone else would do it this time. NB page is move-protected. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

• Agro nocerino-sarnese is an area of land, not a man, here. Better discuss. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

 Oppose for the same reason I explained three times aready, both in the edit object and here on the AN. I won't repeat it again. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 14:47, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 19:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

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Agro Nocerino Sarnese → Agro nocerino-sarnese – As I explained before, this name is not in English, it's in Italian, hence it must follow Italian linguistic rules: adjectives in the names of Italian geographical regions are not capitalised, and there is always a dash between two of them (cf. Appennino tosco-romagnolo, Appennino tosco-emiliano). I had moved the page before, but I was asked to discuss it here instead of 'being bold' because of the previous unsolved dispute. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 21:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is just not correct to say we must follow Italian linguistic rules, we follow Wikipedia:article naming policy and it says nothing of the sort. Rather, the article should be corrected to clarify that English is not standardised in this way, whether in Wikipedia or elsewhere. While the official name in Italian should be given and is, and also one in English if it exists (and we have no reference to support even that yet), the unsourced POV that the current name is improperly used should be removed. The article gives no English references at all but here are two [1] [2] that use the name as in the current article title. Andrewa (talk) 23:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

You're wrong, the naming policy shows that foreign names must be written accordingly, otherwise you should choose the English translation: 'Agro', 'nocerino' and 'sarnese' are all three Italian words, so we must write this name correctly in Italian, or translate it in English (something like 'Nucerin-Sarnese Countryside'). Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 04:01, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is the English Wikipedia, not the Italian, and proper noun titles are capitalised in English. Furthermore, English sources do capitalise it this way per Andrewa's evidence. Further examples include [3][4]. It's even sometimes capitlised that way in Italian: [5]  — Amakuru (talk) 13:36, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, proper names of place are invariably capitalised in English unless they have fully passed into the language as a word with a distinct meaning ("baloney", for example, is often written in lower case, as is genoa); adjectives derived from those proper names of place are also invariably capitalised unless they have been completely assimilated into the language (even when "Florentine" means a kind of biscuit rather than a person from Florence, it is still usually capitalised). That is not the case here, ordinary capitalisation applies.

The proposer fundamentally misunderstands how this works in English, but also appears to have little familiarity with how capitalisation works in Italian, where it is much more variable; and not much more with hyphenation in Italian, which is also variable. Here are a few examples of "Agro Nocerino Sarnese", capitalised but not hyphenated:

• the Gazzetta Ufficiale della Repubblica Italiana, 1996
• the same, 2004
• the same, 2020
• the Regione Campania (in which it lies)
• Marco Bernabei (1975), Fascismo e nazionalismo in Campania (1919-1925), page 151
• Dario Ciccarelli (2002), Bioarchitettura istituzionale: la via del tradere, page 134; this last also contains "Agro nocerino sarnese", both with and without hyphen; even within that one book there is no consistency.

The Provincia di Salerno appears to prefer Agro Nocerino-Sarnese, capitalised but hyphenated.

JSTOR gives three results; all are capitalised, one is hyphenated.

What we do in the English Wikipedia is follow the ordinary English linguistic practice; we don't follow the rules of other languages, particularly when the other language really has no relevant rules. The name of the place can be written in at least eight ways: Agro Nocerino Sarnese, Agro Nocerino-Sarnese, Agro nocerino sarnese, Agro nocerino-sarnese, Agro Sarnese Nocerino, Agro Sarnese-Nocerino, Agro sarnese nocerino, Agro sarnese-nocerino; the other seven should be redirects. Once this is closed, it'd be helpful if some kind person would undo the dozen or so instances where the OP has mistakenly down-cased the name of this place. Thank you, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:51, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.