File talk:Virgin Mary and Jesus (old Persian miniature).jpg

Subject of picture

This is probably not Mary and Jesus. It appears to be Maya and Buddha.

Amandajm (talk) 09:37, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it is Mary & Jesus, but it looks Indian and not Persian to me (the style in the tree for example, and the "stalk" on the head, which indeed looks Buddhist). What religious context it was produced in seems pretty unclear - if I had to guess I'd say Christian. Johnbod (talk) 21:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

So the long and short of it is that it is uncertain. I have my own guess, but will not offer it for we can not guess sources. How frequent are depictions of Jesus in Islam? Probably not. So using this within Islamic pages amounts to speculation. History2007 (talk) 23:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Both Jesus and Mary are shown in Islamic art, but rarely. In addition some Western religious prints are copied by Islamic artists (Mughal especially) with apparently little interest in the subject matter - though this doesn't look like that. But yes this one is uncertain until a source and context are found, & might remain so therafter (see my talk page late August/early September for a longer discussion). I'm pretty sure it is Mary & Jesus, but in what context I'm not sure. It might be for a Western market etc. Johnbod (talk) 23:22, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and I meant probably not frequent. In any case, no amount of discussion here can/should determine the origin, for that would be WP:OR. Officially, it is undecided what this image is, unless you can find it in a printed book. History2007 (talk) 09:46, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It is a pity that these images float around and the sources are not properly noted. The parallel with Buddhist iconography ins interesting. I do not know enough abou that. but as for the "stalk", there are ample examples in islamic miniatures; Moghul-Iranian styles can show East Asian features; cf here: Mary/child: I found this one also explained as "Ottoman". Stalk also herte in this Muhamad depiction (Muhammed meets Jesus and Moses during Miraj Kipala (talk) 07:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That does look Persian - the text would help here. Johnbod (talk) 16:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• I was asked by Eperoton to read the bits of poems in this photo. Jesus (Persian: عیسی) and Mary (((lang-fa|مریم}}) both are mentioned in the first bit. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:13, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks very much! Johnbod (talk) 12:51, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I think we should add that we both had trouble deciphering the text, despite recognizing some Persian words. The first line (top right corner) seems to contain the phrase "عیسی و مریم" (Isa and Maryam), but there are some mysterious extra dots underneath. One would need someone trained in reading old Persian manuscripts to get a definitive answer. Eperoton (talk) 14:37, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

A further note on Islamic vs. Christian context: I'm not aware of any Christian tradition that uses flame halos, which is standard iconography for Islamic prophets.

They do exist, see Halo (religious iconography). But this is a pretty minor issue; an artist would be likely to use local visual conventions. I still think it most likely that this comes from an Indian or Persian Christian context. Johnbod (talk) 01:10, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I've added a pn tag there, since I can't find this in Didron, who ascribes the bonfire-style halo to Persians, Arabs and Turks. There's a flaming halo used in Eastern iconography related to the Pentecost, but I believe the flame is added to a circular nimbus. The suggestion that an Eastern Christian image would adopt Islamic iconography rather than Christian traditions doesn't correspond to my experience, and it would also be odd to give a halo only to Jesus and not to Mary. Eperoton (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I will of course get straight on to reading both volumes to track that down. No doubt you did the same before placing the tag. Over and out. Johnbod (talk) 03:13, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Interestingly, the Ottoman illustration linked above also gives Mary a flame halo. According to The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World, "there is a consensus in the Sunnī and Shīʿī traditions that [Mary's] gender prevents her from being categorized as a prophet. Among the dissenters was the Andalusian Ẓāhirī jurist, Ibn Ḥazm (d. 1064 ce), who forcefully asserted that Mary as well as other women who received such inspiration [...] are all to be considered prophets." I don't know what to make of that, but this is just a digression. Eperoton (talk) 19:42, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

What exactly is the reason to doubt this being Jesus? This image got removed from an article, due to this dispute. Chinese looking facial expressions were common in later Islamic arts, because Indian art-style was used. Also the flames have been a common depiction for holy characters, like the nimbus in Christian thought. It symbolizes the "noor" a prophet is supposed to radiant.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Source of the picture

The image is from a late 16th-century 'Falnama' ("Book of Omens"), currently in the collection of the Wereldmuseum, with inventory number WM-71803-29.

A detailed description of the manuscript, before it was acquired by the Wereldmuseum, was published by Oliver Kahl in 1988. AstroLynx (talk) 22:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Great detective work, AstroLynx! It's a surprising image, and I can understand the skepticism that was expressed about it in the absence of solid sourcing. It's great to finally have a confirmation. Eperoton (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, it bugged me that I could not find a source for the image but I finally found it after using TinEye, putting the links in chronological order and inspecting the earliest websites that contained the image. AstroLynx (talk) 11:11, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

AstroLynx, Eperoton, I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse--but would you mind clearing up exactly what we are looking at (also given Johnbod's doubts, above), and updating the description? I'm asking because of this edit. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 00:08, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Presumably #29 "Maria und Jesus" in Kahl. No doubt you can read the German better than I can. Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 22 March 2022 (UTC)