File talk:Arabic Dialects.svg

Requested sources for new changes

User Dzlinker reverted my updates to the image because of "sourceless edits - the first map is just fine"
The first map is NOT fine, and I mentioned that in my comments both times that I updated the pic. But for those who can't view them I shall now restate why I introduced my improvements to the original picture:
1) The original map has a ton of abstract squiggly lines which do not carry any significance whatsoever, and are in fact inaccurate and confusing.
2) The original map shows Somalis and Djiboutians and Eritreans as Yemeni-Arabic speakers.....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!? The previously mentioned peoples have their own respective dialects which I will mention shortly.
3) The original map mentions the presence of Nubian Arabic and Judeo Arabic in map key on the left-hand side, but completely ignores these dialects on the actual map, whereas my updates actually recognized these dialects and placed them in their areas.
4) The original map showed Chadian Arabic having a "hook" extending from Sudan into Egypt and Libya. When closely examined on any satellite image, you will see this hook occupying completely empty desert with zero urban and/or tribal life!
5) The original map completely ignored Rashaida, Shuwa, Somali, and Touareg Arabic, all of which I will talk about below.
6) Last but not least, the original map showed a huge portion in the border area of Morocco-Algeria as "Saharan" Arabic, which actually turned out to be a sub-dialect of Algerian Arabic spoken by only a 100k people on the Algerian side of the border, which makes it insignificant and overshadowed by the the other two main dialects spoken there.

Now I will start sourcing all of my changes/updates to the map, one by one, from the top of the map's key to the bottom:
1) Gulf Arabic: I cut back its western frontier b/c it was extending too far into Najdi territory, including Riyadh which exclusively speaks Najdi Arabic. I also added it to the southern coast of Iran as stated by this source: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=afb
2) Bahrani Arabic: Extended its border to the places where it is actually spoken: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Bahrani_Arabic http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Bellin_-_Karte_von_der_K%C3%BCste_von_Arabien_c.1745_%28crop%29.png
3) Najdi Arabic: I did not alter it much, I only cut back its southern frontier b/c it was extending too far into the unpopulated Rub' al-Khali desert.
4) Omani Arabic: extended its reach into Eastern UAE b/c the Omani Arabic article states that Omani Arabic is spoken in Hajar Mountains which extends well into eastern UAE. See: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=acx
5) Hijazi and Rashaida: I did not make any big changes to Hijazi, but I did add Rashaida which is a direct relative of Hijazi Arabic as seen here: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Eritrea-people-map.gif http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Rashaida
6) Shihhi Arabic: Spoken in Musandam peninsula at its end, therefore I cut back its southern frontier. See: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ssh
7) Dhofari Arabic: The original map showed it extending north into empty desert, so I cut that out, and also cut back its western and eastern borders as shown by this source: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=adf
8) Yemeni Arabic: I adjusted its borders and took it out of the horn of Africa where its NOT spoken! http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=YE
9) Somali and Afar: These two dialects are essential, and were completely missing from original map. See: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Somali_map.jpg http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=SO
10) Chadic and Shuwa: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Baggara_Arabs_Belt.svg http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Toubou_map.svg
11) Sudanese: did not change much with this dialect
12) Sa'idi: added a small region in southwest http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=EG
13) Egyptian: not much change
14) Judeo Arabic: was previously ignored in original map, now it has been put in its right place from West Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. http://www.ethnologue./show_country.asp?name=IL 15) Nubi Arabic: was previously ignored in original map, now has been put in its right place between Egypt and Sudan. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Nubia_today.png
16) Mediterranean Arabic: did not touch it at all, even though it is an insignificant sub-dialect of Levantine Arabic spoken by only a handful of people in Cyprus.
17) Juba Arabic: did not touch it at all
18) Iraqi Arabic: cut back its reach in Syria because it does not extend that far into Syria, spoken mainly in Deir az-Zour province. http://www.ethnologue.com /show_country.asp?name=SY
19) Levantine Arabic: only major change I did was cut it back from northern Syria (especially Aleppo and Idlib provinces) where the main dialect is North Mesopotamian
20) North Mesopotamian: extended it to Aleppo and Idlib provinces in Syria where it is commonly spoken
21) Badawi Arabic: did not touch it
22) Moroccan Arabic: extended its reach to Bechar province where it is spoken, while cutting back its southern frontier by Hassaniya which I will mention shortly
23) Tunisian Arabic: did not touch it at all
24) Algerian Arabic: extended its reach further south where it is spoken. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=DZ
25) Libyan Arabic: fixed its borders based on all its other neighboring dialects, and based on this: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=LY http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Libya_ethnic.svg
26) Hassaniya Arabic: extended its range in north and east, while cutting back its southern front. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Hassaniya_language_distribution.svg
27) Touareg Arabic: The touareg are excellent Arabic speakers if you have ever heard them speak it like I have. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Tuareg_area.png

Any questions of comments then place write it down. Please do not unilaterally change the file without discussion. Thanks and bye! Moester101 (talk) 10:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Well I have no doubt that your research improves the accuracy of the map but you are not actually uploading an SVG, you can create another PNG map.--Rafy (talk) 22:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but your personal opinions on Yemeni Arabic are factually incorrect; see Yemeni Arabic. Note that Somali Arabic redirects to Yemeni Arabic. Afar and Somali proper are Afro-Asiatic languages like Arabic, but only very distantly related to Arabic. As for "Touareg Arabic", your reason for including it is just WP:OR, plain and simple. Not sure why you mentioned the Toubou, as their language isn't even genetically related to Arabic. Reverting again, as too many major errors were introduced. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

First, please don't refer to my edits as my "personal opinion" (I take offense to such a remark), I made the edits as a result of my thorough research stated in the gigantic paragraph above. Now I can tell you my rebuttal. The first thing you brought up was Yemeni Arabic and Somali Arabic. Whether or not Somali Arabic is a sub-dialect of Yemeni Arabic is not really an issue to me, I'm just trying to document where Arabic is spoken based on my previously mentioned research. Also, this picture illustrates how Arabic is spoken in most of Somalia, all of Djibouti, and the Afar region of Eritrea (hence why I made the edits that I made) but I have to concede that I overextended their reach into Ethiopia and Kenya (which is a mistake that I've fixed), so I'm decreasing their reach into their proper areas and changing their color to pink, so basically Yemeni Arabic is now back to its original border with the exception of the addition of most of Somalia to it based on image.

Second you brought up the Tuaregs. Once again this picture shows how areas inhabited by the Tuareg speak Arabic. Note that I wasn't referring to their Berber mother tongue, I was referring to how a lot of Tuareg, especially the ones in Libya and Algeria, speak Arabic either as a first or second language, even their WP page says they speak Arabic (after mentioning their Berber tongues in the infobox). Although I once again concede that I might've overextended their reach into Mali and Niger (which I'm fixing in the next update).

Third and last is the Toubou, and actually I don't know why I included them, so I'm reverting the borders of Chadic Arabic to the previous version, while keeping the incorporation of the closeley related Shuwa/Baggara Arabic.

I hope that covers everything, hope you like the new version I'm uploading now. If there's still anything you don't like then edit the image and we'll see it. Later Moester101 (talk) 07:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I read said "gigantic paragraph", and was not all that impressed by the "research" you conducted. You provided no evidence that Somalis and Afars have their own distinct dialect of Arabic. The first link you provided only shows the distribution of the Somali people, not of any language, so it is utterly useless as far as this map goes. The Ethnologue link does not support your contention that "Somali Arabic" exists as a distinct dialect—it only lists Modern Standard/Literary Arabic.

Additionally, you still have provided no evidence that "Tuareg Arabic" is an actual, standalone variety of Arabic. The fact that many Tuaregs speak Arabic does not necessarily mean that they have their own distinct dialect, which is what this map shows. This is not an "Arabic-speaking peoples" map, this is an "Arabic dialects" map. Demonstrate the linguistic evidence in reliable sources for the existence of a distinct dialect, and it can be added.

Regretfully, I have found myself to far too technologically inept to operate any of this image-editing software, so I will leave that to you after I revert it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so the remaining concerns that I see are: 1) remove "Somali and Afar" from key. I will do this by actually reverting that color to what it was originally, which is Judeo Arabic spoken by Arab Jews in west Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. For some reason I removed this in my earlier edits. 2) Not use the term "Tuareg Arabic" for Arabic speakers in the region I mentioned, so I guess I should just call them "Saharans" for a lack of a better term? Or I can label it as "Arabic-speaking Nomads". Anyways, I'll upload the new version now. Moester101 (talk) 07:16, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Moester101, what have you done?!! A dozen of arbitrary changes! For example, the position of Saharan Arabic has been changed for hundreds of miles. While the corresponding article says: "in Algeria, predominantly along the Moroccan border with the Atlas mountains range", where do we find it on your map? — 188.162.65.65 (talk) 09:00, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Maltese

Isn't Maltese and Arabic language?–Spesh531, My talk, and External links 20:41, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Maltese is an Arabic-Italian fusion, NOT an Arabic dialect like what this picture shows. Actually, it is much closer to Italian than Arabic, as it is written with the Latin script and only has few Arabic loanwords. Hope that answers your question. Moester101 (talk) 03:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

It basically does, but isn't it considered a Semitic language? The classification says differently Maltese_language#Classification–Spesh531, My talk, and External links 06:19, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I can see why it would be considered a Semitic language, but that still doesn't make it an Arabic dialect. Think of it this way: If we were to include Semitic languages we would also have to include Ethipia's Amharic language which doesn't even look remotely like Arabic. All-in-all, it wouldn't even matter much as it would just be a dot on the map lol. I've even considered taking-off Cypriot Arabic before b/c of the fact it is barely spoken by less than 10k people and is almost never mentioned as an actual Arabic dialect. Nevertheless I'm happy with the way the map has turned out compared to its previous versions which were horrible. Moester101 (talk) 07:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

People, "Arabic-Italian fusion" is a non-sense. There's practically a consensus among linguists that Maltese is an Ausbau language derivated from an Arabic dialect (w/ non-Hilalian features) with an Italian superstratum. There are a lot of sources on the dedicated article.

If you speak French, you can also read the FR.Wiki article on Maltese. --Omar-toons (talk) 05:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of what Maltese is, it is so insignificant as it will not be able to be spotted on the map since it will likely be smaller than a pixel on the map! And personally, I'm not adding a whole new criteria in the legend/key for it. Moester101 (talk) 06:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

SVG is a vectorial image format, so it doesn't make sense to speak of pixels here. Maltese should be added to the map per all the linguistic consensus. It might not be spottable at smaller scales, but it definitely will be at larger scales. A map is not a mere illustration, it's also an encyclopedic content by itself, so if there's some data that's missing we should not discard it based on aesthetic considerations. Maltese is a significant language linguistically speaking. And its closeness to Tunisian arabic in numerous features such as grammar, conjugation, word flexions and basic vocabulary is just obvious to any speaker of this dialect, regardless of the amount of vocabulary from latin origin. One could even feel that there is a level of mutual understanding that is higher between Tunisian arabic and Maltese than between Tunisian and, e.g. Egyptian arabic — I certainly do think so myself. Alibaba (talk) 23:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Transparent

A suggestion would be to make the areas where Arabic is not the majority transparent by 50%—SPESH531Other 00:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I can see how that would help improve the map, but there are many obstacles to be overcome to achieve this: 1) it will be hard to actually do/edit it, and I personally don't know how to do it. 2) pinpointing the exact locations where Arabic is not majority will also be hard and likely inaccurate (even though there's a map that supposedly shows that) 3) it might sound nice in theory, but will likely make the map look messy considering there's already about 25 colors on the map, and making each of those have two versions (not transparent and half transparent) will make the map confusing. 4) don't forget this map's purpose is just for arabic dialects, not for frequency of use of Arabic, etc.... To be honest I really think the map in its current state is perfect considering our limited resources as WP editors. The only way I think this map can be improved is if we had the budget to visit every area of every Arab country to ensure that dialects' borders are most accurate (but this is not going to happen of course) Let's keep it as it is. Moester101 (talk) 07:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Andalusian Arabic and Central Asian Arabic

It appears that Andalusian Arabic is still spoken in the parts of Morocco and Tunisia that are (confirmed) to be inhabited by descendants of the Andalusian Muslims who migrated there after their hometowns were conquered in the Iberian peninsula. Could anyone collaborate on this? I will try to find sources & evidence to support this, and possibly include Andalusian Arabic in this map (in parts of Morocco & Tunisia).--Fernirm (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

How about we also include the still living Central Asian Arabic dialects?--169.231.49.10 (talk) 20:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No serious data basis for this map

Wast areas of the region, where Arabic is spoken, were never seriously studied by people with an academic background. There are some regions, like Syria, Palestine, Egypt and North Yemen where such work was done and published, for example in "Sprachatlas von Syrien" in 3 tomes by Peter Behnstedt or "Die nordjemenitischen Dialekte" in 4 tomes by the same author together with Manfred Woidich and "Die ägyptisch-arabischen Dialekte" in 6 tomes by the same authors.

I studied Arab dialects in Heidelberg in the Institut of Prof. Werner Arnold, who is the publisher of "Zeitschrift für Arabische Linguistik" (English: "Journal of Arabic Linguistics") together with Prof. Otto Jastrow. This Journal is the only one of its kind. According to Prof. Arnold a map like the one here without sources has no value as a reliable source. In my opinion a lot of it is pure fantasy. Therefore this map should not be used. --Metron (talk) 15:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Peninsular Dialects

There are still some corrections that need to be made in the Arabian Peninsula:

1. Najdi Arabic: Najdi extends further south to the cities of Najran and Bisha, further west into the area of Anizah, Harb, Utaybah, and Qahtan (basically, to where the desert ends and the Hejaz mountains begin), further east to the desert of the Eastern Province and western Kuwait (though nomadic areas are quite loose and hard to draw).
2. Gulf Arabic: it is still extending too far west into the historical area of the tribes of Al-Dhafeer (west Kuwait and Hafr Al-Batin), Mutair, Bani Khalid, and Ajman, all of whom speak Najdi Arabic. Basically the only area in Saudi Arabia where Gulf Arabic is historically spoken is the area shaded as "Bahrani Arabic", where some speak Bahrani, and some speak Gulf (this applies to Bahrain as well). That is also the area where the vast majority of people in the Eastern Province live anyway.
3. Hijazi: Urban and Bedouin dialects in the Hijaz are very different. Most of the bedouin dialects are likely sub-dialects of Najdi Arabic (including Rashaida), but some in North Hijaz are Northwest Arabian Arabic (previously titled Bedawi Arabic)."Hijazi Arabic" usually refers to urban Hijazi, which is only spoken in the cities of Mecca Province and Al Madinah Province.
4. Northwest Arabian Arabic (prev. Bedawi): extends further south to at least Tabuk, Saudi Arabia. The sources that describe Northwest Arabian Arabic do not include Eastern Egyptian Bedawi. Furthermore, there was a mistake in Wikipedia shortening the name "Eastern Egyptian Bedawi" to "Bedawi", which means Bedouin, a typological label used for many dialects across the Arabic speaking world (see: Bedouin Arabic).
5. Southern Saudi Arabia (Al Bahah Region, Jazan Region, Asir Region) contains its own group of dialects, which are closely related to Yemeni Arabic. They are very distinct and certainly not a part of Hijazi Arabic. Prochazka calls them "Dialects of the Southern Hijaz and Tihama", though they are also often locally called "Janubi" (southern).
6. As mentioned in other discussions, there is no "Somali Arabic". There are Yemeni Arabs in Somalia who speak Yemeni dialects.

Some other notes on other dialects:

1. Anatolian Arabic, which is a group of North Mesopotamian dialects, is spoken in Eastern Turkey and extends as far north as Muş Province. The border of North Mesopotamian should extend further north.
2. "Iraqi" should be renamed to "South Mesopotamian". Both Mesopotamian groups are Iraqi.

I can provide sources for most of those claims if needed. High surv (talk) 08:21, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

@High surv, FYI we've just created an updated version map, it's hopefully better: feedback welcome! A455bcd9 (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi @A455bcd9. Who is "we"? Should we discuss issues in talk:Arabic Varieties Map.svg or is there an already active discussion elsewhere?

There's a lot of issues I have with this map in the Peninsula. The map in Peninsular Arabic, which I have edited recently, sums up my opinion, though it's far from perfect. High surv (talk) 12:27, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi @High surv.

"We" = see here

Feel free to discuss potential issues here on Commons. But please note that this map is entirely sourced using reliable sources (mostly Ethnologue). On the other hand, although your map is great, it seems to be WP:OR: original research is fine for an image on Commons, but then we shouldn't use such an image on Wikipedia, especially on Wikipedia:Good articles and Wikipedia:Featured articles. So if you have feedback regarding this map, please provide reliable sources or please send your feedback directly to Ethnologue so that they can update their own map and we'll update the Wikimedia map accordingly.

FWIW, here are Ethnologue's maps of the Peninsula:

• Oman
• Yemen
• Rest of the Peninsula

Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 13:26, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@A455bcd9 I'm quite honestly shocked by how wrong these Ethnologue maps are, especially the third one. I'll provide objections in the coming days.

My map is based on sources, I just didn't know how you're supposed to include them, since the previous map did not. I'll include them following the new map's format now. High surv (talk) 13:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@High surv, yes, there are many mistakes on Ethnologue. That's why the best thing to do is to contact them, because Wikipedia will most likely follow Ethnologue as it is considered "the standard reference" in linguistics. If you used sources you should include them all in the "Source" section of the Summary box, see here for an example. A455bcd9 (talk) 14:27, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@A455bcd9 I'm wondering how verification works in maps like these. There are many areas marked where I doubt any sources can be found to support or refute the Ethnologue map. For example, there are areas in the middle of the Empty Quarter that have barely any inhabitants, marked as part of the "Gulf" dialect area. I don't believe any linguistic studies exist for those areas at all. Is the map assumed to be the truth, regardless? High surv (talk) 10:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

@High surv: "Is the map assumed to be the truth, regardless?" => Most likely yes, if a reliable source says something, we believe it (because of Wikipedia:No original research). (Unless other reliable sources say the contrary of course.) On the specific case of areas sparsely populated, it's an "editorial choice" I would say: some maps color them, some don't. A455bcd9 (talk) 14:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @High surv, I've just answered. You should log in using your Wikipedia credentials on Wikimedia Commons, because otherwise people cannot know it's you. A455bcd9 (talk) 08:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)